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Was Jesus' Father Really a Roman Soldier Named Tiberius Pantera?

Nell is fascinated by ancient history, archaeology, and ancestry. Where do we come from? And what makes us who we are today?

Mary and Jesus with Joseph.

Mary and Jesus with Joseph.

This is how we see Jesus.

This is how we see Jesus.

Who Was Jesus' Father?

The story of Jesus Christ is ingrained within us. We all know when he was born, where he lived and who he traveled with. But there is so much more to His story that is never told.

In fact the Church holds onto this information for whatever reasons they choose. Why? Are they scared they will lose credibility if the truth comes out? Or is it just the fact that they would rather hold onto the real mysteries of the Bible?

That is one question that I doubt will be answered anytime soon.

What I am about to reveal is actually not a very well hidden secret. If you know where to look you will see that others have already discussed and discovered the background story, and its a pretty amazing one at that.

But is this is the REAL FACE  of Jesus? That's another story!

But is this is the REAL FACE of Jesus? That's another story!

Read It Here!

The Pantera Bloodline.

Around 177 AD Celsus a Greek Philosopher wrote a book called The True Word. In it he describes the belief of many Jewish scholars, and in fact the thoughts and memories of many people back then who came from the Holy Land.

The truth, as was told back then, is that Jesus' parents were Mary, and a Roman Soldier named Pantera. In other words, Jesus' father was in fact human.

The name Pantera was quite common back then, but we do have his first name too.

He was known as Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera.

This was recorded not only in the Jewish Talmud but also in other Jewish writings and Roman records. In it Jesus was referred to as Jesus (Yeshu) ben Pantera, Son of Pantera.

Jesus is a fairly modern take on his real name. He was mainly known as Yeshu or Yeshua, which makes sense as there was no letter J in the Hebrew or Greek alphabet around the time of the Jesus story.

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera Roman soldier, is he the father of Jesus?

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera Roman soldier, is he the father of Jesus?

Who Was Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera? 'Panthera'

And was he the alleged father of Jesus, or Yeshua?

Tiberius was an Archer in the Roman army around the time of Jesus birth. He was born in Sidon Phoenicia, which today is in Lebanon, approximately 25 miles south of Beirut.

The first Cohorts of Archers left Palestine and went to Dalmatia in 6 AD and then onto the Rhine in 9 AD.

Pantera was enlisted locally, and served in the army for approx. 40 years. Which was by this time, in the reign of Tiberius. When he was discharged he would then have been granted citizenship by the Emperor and thus added the Emperor's name to his own, which was common back then.

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There is speculation at that time from Jewish Scholars and Roman soldiers that Tiberius could very well have raped Mary, but of course it could have been a romantic liaison between Mary and Pantera.

Either way there is speculation that the Catholic Church is aware of the alleged beginnings. The belief is that Joseph arrived to collect Mary to marry her, only to find her already pregnant. He forgave her and they became man and wife.

There is also a rumour that Joseph was going to back out of the marriage, purely because back then it would have been regarded as adultery. In fact it was alleged that the reason why Mary and Joseph left, was to escape persecution because of the adultery, along with the documented reason that Herod was going to kill all the male babies.

To stir the pot even more, we have a tombstone which is evidently the tomb of Tiberius Julius Abedes Pantera as you can see below.

The gravestone is residing in the Romerhalle museum, Bad Kreuznach, Germany.

Pantera Tombstone.

Tiberius Pantera tombstone possibly the father of Jesus!

Tiberius Pantera tombstone possibly the father of Jesus!

Pantera Gravestone.

In 1859 a gravestone was found in Germany. The name on the stone was Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera. He was a Roman soldier.

He served in the unit Cohors I Sagittariorum. He had served in Judea before going to Germany.

The name Abdes is Jewish for (Servant of God). Therefore stating that he had a Jewish background.

'Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera Sidonia annorum LXIIstipendiorum XXXX miles exsignifer cohorte I sagittariorumh situs est'

Translated as:

'Tiberius Iulius Abdes Panterafrom Sidon, age 62 years served for 40 years, former standard bearer of the First Cohort of Archers lies here'.


  1. The Emperor Tiberius ruled from 14 AD to 37 AD so.....
  2. Pantera's 40 odd years of service would have been between 27 BC and 4 BC which means that.....
  3. Pantera would probably have been about 18 when he enlisted, so he was probably born between 45 BC and 22 BC. This means that........
  4. Pantera could have been between the ages of 15 or 38 when Jesus was conceived in the year 7 BC *

*The year of Jesus' birth is a stone of contention among Biblical Scholars, the latest reasoning is told that it was earlier than they thought. For further reading and to understand how the timelines worked back then, check out this link:

The Real Jesus Bloodline?

Whether we believe in Jesus as the Son of God, or whether we look at him in a purely historic way, there is no denying that there is more to the story than we know. The Church has taken over our way of worship for two thousand years, and to my mind has left out some of the most important parts of the story.

I don't know whether this story is true or not. It seems that its been hidden in Jewish Law and the Talmud for centuries, along with Roman scholars and their writings too.

Do I believe it? Its possible. I tend to sit on the fence with this one. Why? Because there are a few buts that I would need to verify first.

For example:

Its possible that Celsus was a Christian hater. He was a pagan, and its said that he disliked the Church.

This would make sense. If he was, then he would do anything to discredit Jesus, Mary and the whole story.

But where did the Jewish Talmud get hold of the idea? Well, evidently it was Jewish Oral Law way back at the time of Jesus. It was taken for granted that Jesus was the illegitimate son of Mary and Pantera, or as some called him (Panthera).

And there is the fact that Scholars for centuries have always asked the question, why was Jesus called Ben Panthera or Pantera?

I will leave you with this to mull over. I actually found this to be the most disturbing part of the story. And just goes to show how the Church manipulates our thoughts and beliefs.

Does it Matter?

Jesus son of Pantera Jesus Ben Pantera

Jesus son of Pantera Jesus Ben Pantera

Hidden Secrets and Church Lies.

Adamantius Origen, was an early Christian historian, and church father. He recorded the following verses about Mary.

'Mary was turned out by her husband, who was a carpenter by profession, because she had been convicted for unfaithfulness.

Cut off by her husband, she gave birth to Jesus, who was a bastard. Then Jesus, because of his poverty was then hired out and told to go to Egypt. There he acquired magical powers, which Egyptians all pride themselves on, believing they all possess the power'

In passage (1:32) Origen agreed with the Jewish records, and confirmed the fact that Jesus was the son of a Roman soldier called Panthera, or Pantera. He then went on to repeat the verse in 1.69.

But like all secrets, during the 17th Century, all of those sentences were erased from the ancient Vatican manuscripts and other codices books under the Catholic Church's control.

The Church writings of St.Epiphanius, who was the Bishop of Salamis from 315 to 403 AD once again confirmed the ben Panthera story. What is startling is that he was a Catholic orthodox and a high Saint of Roman Catholicism. So his statement concerning Mary and Jesus is pretty hard to ignore. He says:

Jesus was the son of Julius whose surname was Pantera (Panthera)

This is an amazing and extraordinary declaration that was written in a simple way, and recorded in those ancient records. Even more extraordinary is the fact that the early Church accepted this as real history. It was written in such a way that everybody believed it as fact. The ben Pantera story was so far reaching that these early followers of the Christian church inserted Pantera's name in the written geneology of Jesus and Mary.

Now you can't beat that can you?

Phew! Hard pill to swallow eh?

But I have to add that to me, it just makes Jesus more human, and much more real than the distant Jesus in the Bible. The Catholic Church does know the story, so why did they change it originally? I often wonder if the Church was founded on lies and power.

Would they ever tell the World if it is real? Of course not! And more to the point, if the Church did say it, would people believe it? No I don't think so. Which is fine.

But let's be honest:

Does it really Matter?

I mean if you think about it someone had to be the father of Jesus. Nobody these days really believes that you can have a virgin birth.

So, if we believe Jesus was the Son of God through his Spirit and not literally his DNA, then someone had to be his earthly father. And we know it's not Joseph.

I actually think that in this day and age, people will accept Jesus with his more colorful history, and see him as a real person. I know I do. Whether this is based on truth or not.

Jesus was a flesh and blood man. His Spirit was much much more. Simple as that.

As a last thought I would like to share one thing with you. I recently went to Cyprus and spent a couple of hours in the Church of Lazarus. Yes THAT Lazarus!

Evidently Lazarus went to live in Larnaca Cyprus and died there many years later. The Church was built over his tomb.

I have stood in the church looking down at the tomb. (Photo below) And like many people who come face to face with the Bible's reality it took my breath away. I could feel the reality of history folding round me as I touched the tomb of Lazarus.

So, yes Jesus was real. If he wasn't then there wouldn't be a tomb of Lazarus, or at least a revered tomb of Lazarus.

Jesus is mentioned in many gospels and new found scrolls.

And Jesus had a father. Who, we will never really know.

There will always be people and religions who try to say He wasn't real. This evidence just makes Him much more than a few words written on old parchment.


The story of Pantera (Panthera) is not my opinion. This is based on historic and religious books that have been around for centuries.

Its up to you to decide if you believe it or not. Thanks for reading.

The tomb of Lazarus in Larnaka Cyprus.

The tomb of Lazarus in Larnaka Cyprus.

Well, What do you Think?

Research and Sources:

Calender and Times BC and AD

  • Priceless Christian relics found The most important ...
    A Bedouin man has found the greatest discovery of Christianity while searching a cave in Northern Jordan. The Lead Book or Codices may well have been written by the First Christians and explain in code, the coming of the Messiah.
  • Jesus Was Married - Other Facts That Point To The Tr...
    Jesus said to them, My Wife. These words are taken from a new Gospel, a 4th Century Coptic Script discover by professor Karen King. Do we interpret the Bible Correctly? New evidence suggests we have got some important facts completely wrong.

© 2015 Nell Rose


Nell Rose (author) from England on May 03, 2020:

Thanks Tim, I don't think anyone will ever really know who his 'earthly' father was. But I don't think it matters really, good to see you, and take care okay?

Tim Truzy from U.S.A. on May 03, 2020:

I don't remember if I've read this one before, Nell, but it brought something to mind. I watched a program about the Knights Templer and how they were persecuted for having documents which could have destroyed the early church. The persecution was ordered by the French King, and that's why this order has nearly disappeared. Your article makes me think: what are they truly hiding? Besides, Jesus Christ was really on Earth, and that's not debatable. Thanks again for a great read. Love ya, and you and your family stay safe.

Nell Rose (author) from England on April 06, 2017:

Thanks Lizzy, I quite agree with you! I have always said the same, especially a certain religion that is causing trouble as usual! I do believe in Jesus, but not in the way that they showed him, thanks as always. And I will check the photo.

Liz Elias from Oakley, CA on April 05, 2017:

Interesting, but hardly surprising. As an atheist, I hold the position that religions were created in the first place to wield power and control people. In fact, it was in the news recently that a catholic bishop admitted as much in so many words.

I don't capitalize god, because I don't regard it as a name, but a job description; likewise the word catholic: it's original definition is "universal."

My husband holds a degree from a legitimate seminary school, and refuses to practice because of what he learned therein. During the infamous 'council of Nicea,' the church removed from public view more biblical texts than now exist in the current versions.

That lends nothing to the credibility of churches, but destroys it instead.

(BTW--your Pantera gravestone photo is not displaying...)

Nell Rose (author) from England on April 03, 2017:

Hi PinoyWitch, I am not sure to be honest. When I wrote this I just took the info and thought, Wow! I will try to look it up more and see where the info came from, and thanks for reading.

Ian Spike from Cebu, Philippines on April 03, 2017:

wow Nell, quite a turn out. Like most people I've never heard of this.. lets go ahead and call this a theory, because as much as there are evidence presented, there will always be people trying to discredit it. What I would like to ask is, how did they know for sure that Panthera was the biological father of Jesus, aside from the information that he served in Jerusalem around the time Mary conceived Jesus?(this is not an attack on this, I'm just really curious) I mean, do they have historical accounts Tiberius and Mary briefly dated or at least know each other?

Nell Rose (author) from England on March 16, 2017:

Thanks for your comment Justin.

Justin Fowler on March 16, 2017:

Yes He was a son of God .. his name known as Yeshua means a Joshua.. a prodigal Son of God . And the Godhead is the body .

Nell Rose (author) from England on December 25, 2016:

Thank you Ralph, yes I do believe in him. this is about his earthly father? maybe he didn't know or wasn't told who his earthly father was? either way I do believe in him, and thank you.

Nell Rose (author) from England on December 15, 2015:

Thanks Greenhouse, glad you liked it, nell

Aimee on December 15, 2015:

Great Article! Now I have a new topic to read up on! Thank you!

Nell Rose (author) from England on November 15, 2015:

Thanks lizzy, that's great! I will go take a look, nell

Liz Elias from Oakley, CA on November 14, 2015:

I just found another site that goes into great detail. It's very lengthy, but also thorough in its explanations and analysis.

Nell Rose (author) from England on November 14, 2015:

Thanks snowsprite, yes its one of the theories, I don't think anyone will ever really know, thanks for reading, nell

Fay from Cornwall, UK on November 13, 2015:

This makes more sense than the Church version. I am surprised I hadn't heard of it before though. From what I remember Jesus had never claimed to be anything other than a man anyway and it was years later he was given a higher status. But that is just from memory. Although I do not believe for a minute that it was a virgin birth, I guess technically it would be possible these days with our technology and artificial insemination etc.

Nell Rose (author) from England on August 05, 2015:

Thanks Cornelia, yes you may well be right there, I just love the historical value of it, thanks so much for reading, nell

Korneliya Yonkova from Cork, Ireland on August 05, 2015:

I have heard about that Panthera speculation and this does not surprises me. Both Romans and Jews extremely hated Christians and Jesus so they invented this case to discredit the truth. :( Very interesting hub, by the way, learned many new historical facts from it, keep the great work, Nell :)

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 28, 2015:

Hi lawrence, yep that is so true! I don't like the 'holier than thou' attitude of religion, I like the real man behind it, thanks for coming back, nell

Lawrence Hebb from Hamilton, New Zealand on July 28, 2015:


Yeah. Sometimes "being more like Jesus" means getting angry! We've just got to try and do it for the right reasons!


Nell Rose (author) from England on July 28, 2015:

Hi lawrence, lol! yes he certainly had a temper! but good for him! thanks for letting me know I will check it out some more, we always read the bible but never READ it!

Lawrence Hebb from Hamilton, New Zealand on July 27, 2015:


Its in John chapter 8 and Jesus is having one of his frequent arguments with the pharisees.

In verse 19 they ask him where his father is? They knew Joseph was dead and maybe the story of the virgin birth had already morphed?

Jesus returns the compliment later and that results in them wanting to kill him!

Also earlier the man born blind that Jesus had healed had resulted in another argument where the pharisees had thrown the poor guy out of the synagogue effectively ostracising him!

We think of Jesus as being "Gentle Jesus, meek and mild" but the truth is he was anything but and had frequent "bust ups" with the authorities!

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 27, 2015:

Hi lawrence, I never knew that about the gospel of john! Wow! and yes I totally agree with you, how would we ever know the truth? thanks for reading, nell

Lawrence Hebb from Hamilton, New Zealand on July 25, 2015:


This is interesting! The stories about Jesus' father have been around almost as long as Jesus himself! In fact in the gospel of John he's accused of being illigitimate.

A good hub well written but the reality is that after so long even if there was any truth (I don't believe there is) there would be no way to prove it.


Nell Rose (author) from England on July 24, 2015:

Hi Flourish, me neither, I have never trusted the Catholic church especially after the way they acted in the middle ages! lol! thanks for reading, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 24, 2015:

Hi LS Bailey, thanks for reading, yes it may or not be true, but its certainly different from the bible version! lol!

FlourishAnyway from USA on July 23, 2015:

Fascinating topic, Nell, and I, too, had not heard of this. You certainly do not disappoint. I don't trust that 2,000 years of church politics accurately reflect what happened.

LS Bailey from Los Angles, CA on July 23, 2015:

Thank you Nell so much for providing truth. Although, the truth is suppose to set one free, it can scare others who are religious instead of spiritual.

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 20, 2015:

Thanks Faith, I am a bit of a religious historian if I care to admit it! lol! so anything new that comes along I get interested in it, but to be honest I am not sure about this, you are probably right! thanks for reading, nell

Faith Reaper from southern USA on July 19, 2015:

Hi Nell,

I don't belong to any particular religious denomination or anything, but I am a Christian for I am in a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus, our Lord and Savior, the Son of God and Man. I think this here is a lot of gossip as you stated in a comment. I don't believe it for a second. He has revealed Himself to me. The name Jesus was common back in that day for sure, and there may have been one who is the son of a Roman solider, but not Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

In Luke 22: 69-70 Jesus states He is the Son of God, "But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD.” 70And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.” 71Then they said, “What further need do we have of testimony? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth.”

As Jesus states while on the cross, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

I am glad you are searching.

Peace and love always

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 19, 2015:

I totally agree with you Genna, its who he was as a man not where he came from, thanks so much for reading, nell

Genna East from Massachusetts, USA on July 19, 2015:

Hi Nell...

Fascinating article. I don't think it matters, and I happen to believe in God. It was through the gifts of Jesus, and His message, wherein lies the true spirit of Christianity.

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 17, 2015:

Hi Lizzy, I totally agree with you! so much of the bible is about what is going on around and about, history at its best, getting it wrong sometimes at its worse! I will go and read your link thanks, but I do have to say that I do believe there was a man called Jesus, purely because of the Nag Hammadi scrolls found in 45, thanks as always, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 17, 2015:

Hi Deb, I totally agree with you, get rid of all the rubbish surrounding religion and just believe, but don't knock other peoples religions, thanks, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 17, 2015:

Hi Ben, yep I love the Pope too, he is a good guy! and as for the word Ben it really is ben, meaning son of! LOL! but nearly right, and yes it would be great if there were more references from Roman history, thanks as always, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 17, 2015:

Thanks Kiss and Tales, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 17, 2015:

Hi Suhail, lol! yes I remember the Metal band called Pantera! thanks for reading, I didn't know about that history, but it just proves its as made up as the rest, thanks nell

Liz Elias from Oakley, CA on July 17, 2015:

Personally, I don't believe in the bible as anything more than a collection of fairytales. Allegories at best; pulp fiction at worst. It may present something of a snapshot of the times, nothing more.

Recently, though, I came across something that for me, holds more evidence of the truth of my opinions:, and that is the fact that there seems to be no mention of the man Jesus by any one of the people who would have been his contemporaries:

Your article is interesting, and paints a more realistic picture than any supposed virgin birth, that's for sure. But I find the reference I've cited as pretty compelling evidence that the whole thing is a fabrication.

Voted up and interesting.

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 17, 2015:

Hi quicksand, lol! no I don't think it will happen to science, at least science changes everyday, its not stagnant! thanks so much for reading, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 17, 2015:

Hi Thelma, yes I totally agree with you, what we learned or where taught is really unraveling now isn't it? thanks again, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 17, 2015:

Hi vellur, thanks for reading, and I am glad you liked it, nell

Deb Hirt from Stillwater, OK on July 17, 2015:

If the church really knows anything, which is doubtful in my opinion, it would settle a lot if we all knew the truth, instead of lies shrouded in mystery. I had never heard any of this, so I am glad that you brought it up. Perhaps it would bring mankind closer, if we all knew the reality, and we could all get along as we were meant to do.

Ben Zoltak from Lake Mills, Jefferson County, Wisconsin USA on July 17, 2015:

There is so much hate and deceit in religion, that I have turned away. Although I give the new pope some props, he's genuine in his facts and even his humbleness. Interesting topic though, another Ben! Haha. What I wish there was more of, is the reference points of non-religions texts, the Roman manuscripts mentioned above.

Cheers Nell,


Kiss andTales on July 17, 2015:

Just like a donor who gives a kidney, or organ for transplant to save a life.

Jesus was a donor to all humans to continue

life even past death, many will return. His body being of the first born of God would set

His value so high he covered generation's of people even until now until the end comes.

Man can not purchase another man's freedom from death, nor his future into paradise on earth. But Jesus has done this for us.

Kiss andTales on July 17, 2015:

Some time people lose sight of why Jesus came , he came to purchase human lives that had no hope of continued life. Like Adam and Eve are dead forever never to return. The Father new it was not our fault

So he provided a future for Adams offspring.

Suhail Zubaid aka Clark Kent from Mississauga, ON on July 16, 2015:

Well, this was a very well researched and off the beaten path hub. I never knew about Pantera or Panthera and Jesus being his son, except that there was a heavy metal band by that name. They may still be around.

The theory you have presented is certainly different from what Bible tells us. It is also quite different from what Islam tells us. While Quran states and Muslims believe that Yeshua was born of virgin Mary ordained by God, he was not born of God. So Yeshua was a Man, but had no man-father, just virgin mother.

Oh and another thing - Muslim historians also suggest that Jesus was turned into God's son by Paul, who merged historical Jesus with a mythical Roman god figure to create son of God to seek popularity with Roman audience. It was because of this invention in religion that Paul was actually kick out of places of worship by other Apostles of Jesus (as mentioned by Paul himself in one of his Letters).

Very interesting indeed!

quicksand on July 16, 2015:

Jeez! (Only an exclamation, not a prayer or an appeal to any denizen of history!) I've noticed, in the recent past, history is getting blown to bits! Hope this won't happen to science!

Thelma Alberts from Germany on July 16, 2015:

Now Nell, you reminded me of one of the movies about Jesus when he was called Ben Pantera. I can´t just remember which movie that was. You have written an interesting and thought provoking hub. Well done! I have already wondered in my childhood years about Mary having an immaculate conception. Every time I asked my late mother about this when I was a child, I was scolded. She said, I should believe what the catholic church preached. Now as a middle age woman, I learned and read many things about the catholic religion. I really believe that there are lot of stories hidden by the church.

Nithya Venkat from Dubai on July 16, 2015:

An interesting and fascinating read, never knew about the Pantera bloodline till I read your hub.

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 15, 2015:

Thanks Frank, we have had two thousand years of the Christian Church or Catholics telling us what to think, do and pray, if you think about it its only been a couple of hundred years since we have been able to read the bible ourselves, and less than a hundred that archaeologists and biblical historians have been sifting through the truth, I believe there is more out there to discover about the bible and other religions too, thanks as always, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 15, 2015:

Thanks Kiss and Tales :)

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 15, 2015:

Hiya lily, yes I tend to be on the same idea as you, he was real, he was married and he was amazing too, and that is all that counts as far as I am concerned! lol! but that's my opinion, always great to see you! nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 15, 2015:

Hi Larry, yes that's totally right, and in this case we have to find our own truth within JC's story, all I know is that Jesus must be real there is too much written about him from that time, but anything else is just window dressing, for me it just makes him more real, thanks as always, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 15, 2015:

Thanks grand old lady, you have great points there, and of course we all have our own opinion and each one matters, thanks so much for reading, nell

Frank Atanacio from Shelton on July 15, 2015:

I'm not a Christian, and have no religious support for Jesus, but had I been, this would have dramatically gave me pause. I do have a question.. if this were something really tangible, shouldn't this not be an editorial innovation, but a Christians' major event? None the less you collected and presented strong questions Great hub...Frank

Kiss andTales on July 14, 2015:

The problem with this theory is that Jesus had to be born perfect to replace Adam who

Passed down sin and death to all his offspring. The heavenly Father took his perfect firstborn Angelic son and transplanted his life into Mary as an baby. This would make Mary the carrier . The point is no imperfect human could pay the price for the many people of many generations that have born to receive what Adam and Eve lost for us.

And imperfect man can not pay for an imperfect man they are in the same boat.

but a perfect man can pay for an imperfect man. Jesus was made in the flesh to save many from dying forever and paid for each and everyone to continue life in the future soon we will see.

So to conclude this could not be the case because Jesus offered his life in our Behalf

We belong to him .

another man has not died for us all nor has he approach God in our behalf because .nor

can he appear before the the person of God

Ac 4:12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”

Lillian K. Staats from Wasilla, Alaska on July 14, 2015:

I finally have some time to read. It was in the Talmud. Jewish folk are historians, which is a great deal more than we can say about the early Christian Church!

Not only do I believe that Pantera could be the Lord's Father, but I also believe that Yeshua was Father to a child by Mary Magdalene, whose surname is Montclair or Clairmont.

For me, I still feel great peace praying to Joshua bar Joseph, or Joshua bar Pantera..

I love your courage on this one, Nell, and always, you provide a great read... love yaz, lily

Kiss andTales on July 14, 2015:

Grand OL. You have spoken truth , because all humans that came from Adam are corrupted and born with imperfections that is sin.

A Messiah would pay for a cure and our continued life in the future.

Jesus was perfect and the seed of the Heavenly Father Jehovah, no genetic imperfections was present in his body.

He could adopt us from Adam as his own to live forever .And he did ! He paid the price by

Death of his own life to give us a future.

No humans born could top his value and pay so high.

Larry Fields from Northern California on July 14, 2015:

Hi Nell. You've written another outstanding piece of detective work! in another context, Sherlock himself said: This is a two-pipe problem!

As a card-carrying Bah Humbug, I believe that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is every bit as real as the official fairy tale about JC.

Like you and Marie, I also believe that at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is The Golden Rule. Everything else is window dressing.

In my opinion, rank-and-file Catholics are far more decent than their leaders. Example: Joe Ratzinger was up to his neck in covering up priestly crimes against children.

Let's see if I've got this straight. Artificial birth control is supposed to be a sin. But let's not talk about serial felonies committed by individual priests, and about the routine spin control and cover-ups on the part of the hierarchy. Yeah, right.

Mona Sabalones Gonzalez from Philippines on July 14, 2015:

Interesting article. However, I still believe Jesus was the son of God. To be a son of man takes away from everything Jesus is, such as the example of a leader from heaven who takes on a human body and chooses to be a carpenter's son. This is a great lesson in leadership by example for man. And the idea of Jesus, (God as man) dying for our sins is a perfect example of a leader who loves his people. It gives us an example of what we can expect from a leader and leads us to disregard anything less than what God felt we deserved.

As for all those other stories and legends which existed but which were excluded in the Canon, I think this was a necessary exercise. Even today, in the digital era, there is fact and fiction running rampant, and you have to discern one from the other, rather than include all together because it is about one celebrity or personality. It is the fair thing to do, but one who cares about the truth for the good of others will want to get the accurate story across, warts and all.

However Nell, I always appreciate your articles because they are different and well researched and I believe in learning for its own sake.

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 14, 2015:

Hi MsDora, thanks so much for reading, yes they are fascinating stories aren't they? whether they are true or not, its just history, thanks, nell

Dora Weithers from The Caribbean on July 14, 2015:

Nell, you're so good at finding these interesting stories; this one was also fascinating. There have been several accounts about Jesus different from the Bible account. I agree with you that much have been left out so I read them all. Thanks for another one.

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

Thanks Barbara, yes you are probably right there, its a strange one isn't it? and why have we never heard it before even thought its all over the Internet and old beliefs? we shall never know, thanks so much for reading, nell

Barbara Badder from USA on July 13, 2015:

Jesus was a common name at the time. It means the same as the name Joshua - God is with us. The story is one I don't believe for a minute. I love the stories you've had on here, but this one is a myth if I ever heard one. Of course the Jews would rather believe this tale, since the truth would make them guilty of a terrible crime.

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

Hi drbj, yes that's right, organized religions do have their own agenda and try to ignore history, which is a shame purely because the more we know the better for the religion, thanks so much for reading, nell

drbj and sherry from south Florida on July 13, 2015:

You are certainly making your readers think with this piece, Nell. Whatever his origins, I think most of us would agree that Jesus was an extraordinary human being.

And organized religions tell the people what they want them to know.

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

Thanks Ruby, yes there is so much we don't know, but I love finding out the history of any religion, whether its true or not, I actually believe that people back then believed it, rumours? maybe, thanks nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

Thanks BeatsMe, yes there are many versions and stories around Jesus, I honestly think each and everyone of the them has an iota of truth, thanks for reading, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

Hi kitty, thanks as always, yep and I haven't finished yet! lol!

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

Hi Ictodd, thanks so much for reading, and yes you are probably completely right! lol!

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

Thanks Kiss andTales, thanks once again for your added info, I am learning so much more, thanks again, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

Thanks Jo, that's my feelings exactly! Jesus was a great man, what happened around him is nothing to do with the Man, thanks so much for reading, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

Good points noturningback, but I have to add that you say its sensationalism? I have to disagree with you. If it was taken as fact at the beginning of the Church and at the time of Jesus its not sensationalism it could be fact. Just because the Church has cleaned it up, dusted off the bad bits and turned it into a fairy story doesn't mean its not true, Jesus had a father, fact, was it this guy? maybe, but we have to realise that the Church chooses what it wants and doesn't want in the bible, thanks for reading, nell

Ruby Jean Richert from Southern Illinois on July 13, 2015:

I have never heard of this. Interesting read. There is much we do not know. Well done Nell...

tobusiness on July 13, 2015:

Nell, fascinating stuff. I love the response to this article, these things should be discussed and debated. I do believe that the Church tells us only as much as they want us to know. Do I believe the story? As you've said, it's possible. If true, should it detract from the central Christian message? I don't see why it should. The Lord moves in mysterious ways, elimating some of the fairy tales that surrounds the conception of Jesus, may even prove to be a positive thing at a time when churches are standing empty, well.. in the UK anyway.

I wasn't aware of this before so thank you for an Interesting read.

My best to you.

noturningback from Edgewater, MD. USA on July 13, 2015:

Hello Nell,

I do appreciate your study and research on this man, Tiberius, and I did enjoy your style, even flair, for writing about him.

I, however, do not believe it.

I read through some of the responses, and I did a bit of research myself. It has been recorded that this man was in the area of Jesus' birth and there has been speculation as to him being the father of Jesus, but I can't find the place in the Babylonian Talmud where it documents this.

I know that the Talmud is a collection of oral traditions that were written down in the second century A.D. and with that I believe it is a jaded account.

Historically, we may never know Jesus' father, but as a Christian, I read Mark's, Matthew's, Luke's, John's, Peter's, Paul's and Jame's (Jesus' half-brother) account, these I believe.

Please, could we stop with sensationalism? It detracts from the gospel to promote this hypocrisy.

Mackenzie Sage Wright on July 13, 2015:

Kiss and Tell, the Jews were following many potential messiah candidates from long before Jesus. They followed many during the time Jesus was supposed to have live, too... (Jesus wasn't one of them, though).

BeatsMe on July 13, 2015:

Wow, this is a very interesting and fascinating story. Jesus is an important part of human history, yet His story has other versions such as this. :)

Kitty Fields from Summerland on July 13, 2015:

Super interesting. I'd actually never heard of Jesus referred to as Ben Panthera or Pantera. Another piece to the puzzle that might never make the whole...thanks for sharing!

Linda Todd from Charleston on July 13, 2015:

Nell, I can see you have attracted a lot of attention. No, if you are a Christian; you know and believe that Jesus is the Son of God. One day if we are ready to meet Him; we will and then all of the mystery will be over, once and for all. With that said, you have done a great job with this article writing; photos etc. Thanks for sharing but I am like the others, never heard of this guy. Mary was the Virgin Mary.

Kiss andTales on July 13, 2015:

So now it clear of why a cover up, you have killed God's Son. And now you want to cover it by saying the messiah never came.

But now we are living in the end of time , where , he had to have already come before 70 CE. What is he doing now! gathering citizenship of his Kingship and everything is on time as written , moving on rather people agree or disagree. Jesus envite everyone , but many have declined

He comes to your doors with good News Of His Kingdom Government. Do you welcome him?

Kiss andTales on July 13, 2015:

What is very true that all agreed on was that a Messiah would appear. No matter

Who agreed or disagree of who it was., all knew one was coming, the problem is why did they reject the real one? , because he was not their political choice , he did not fit their Standards of who would further their powers and positions, they were already over righteous making extra laws that was not valid for their own conveniences

Yet Jesus was far from their characters.

They had him killed , but no others had proved they were the messiah by the prophecy that was written long ago.

Notice the ones who appeared after 70 CE

False Messiahs. After Jesus’ death, the Jews followed many false Messiahs, as Jesus had foretold. (Mt 24:5) “From Josephus it appears that in the first century before the destruction of the Temple [in 70 C.E.] a number of Messiahs arose promising relief from the Roman yoke, and finding ready followers.” (The Jewish Encyclopedia,Vol. X, p. 251) Then, in 132 C.E., Bar Kokhba (Bar Koziba), one of the most prominent of the pseudomessiahs, was hailed as Messiah-king. In crushing the revolt that he led, Roman soldier skilled thousands of Jews. While such false Messiahs illustrate that many Jews were primarily interested in a political Messiah, they also show that they properly expected a personal Messiah, not just a Messianic era or Messianic nation. Some believe Bar Kokhba was a descendant of David, which would have aided his Messianic claim. However, since the genealogical records evidently were destroyed in 70 C.E., later claimants to the office of Messiah could not establish proof that they were of David’s family. (The Messiah therefore had to appear before 70 C.E., as Jesus did, in order to prove his claim as the heir of David. This shows that persons still looking for the Messiah’s earthly appearance are in error.) Among such later false claimants to messiahship were Moses of Crete, who asserted he would divide the sea between Crete and Palestine, and Serenus, who misled many Jews in Spain. The Jewish Encyclopedia lists 28 false Messiahs between the years 132 C.E. and 1744 C.E.—Vol. X, pp. 252-255.

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

Hi bravewarrior, I would imagine that back then all men were the leaders, no women were important not even Mary. So even if she had been made pregnant by another man it wouldn't have mattered who he was back then, only that he was amazing, and did miraculous things, and of course the fact that he had hundreds of disciples and followers helped to set the way, thanks for reading, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

Hi Mary, lol! I get my teeth into these and don't let go! yes so true, I have no idea of the truth either, it just got my interest purely because I was reading something else and I found this, and thought what?? lol!

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

Thanks KissandTales, I never knew that, interesting stuff! thanks for reading, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

Hi Nelllieanna, that is so true, and at the end of the day that is all that matters, thank you, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

Hi Jewels, so true. I think its what we call Chinese whispers, some of its true, others are lies and the rest is rumours, but as for the man I still think he was something special, and at the end of the day, thats all that matters as far as I can see, thanks for reading, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

HI Wiccan, thanks so much for reading, yes it surprised me too! lol! I find out these stories and history by literally tripping over them so to speak while reading or researching something else, and then I get my teeth into it! lol! thanks, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 13, 2015:

Phew! lol! Romeos! thanks for all the added info, I of course have no idea if this was true or not, but I do have an opinion. After doing all the research and reading some pretty nasty sections of 'certain' religions which I won't mention because of repercussions, because believe me when I read it I was actually in tears that these so called writers of the old holy books could be so cruel and disgusting in how they claim that Jesus was conceived...its all out there if you choose to look, I even surprised myself how upset and angry I got at them..! anyway, back to my point, I believe Pantera was not a Roman himself he was in fact recruited in the holy land, so he was Jewish, but the reason why he was never mentioned when Jesus was crucified and beaten is that it was just that, a rumour. it was probably true in the beginning, but Pantera himself would never admit being the father, whether Jesus was born out of love or something nastier, so to the locals Jesus and Mary would probably have been regarded as Jewish, with rumours! but I get your point, and yep I guess we will never know. but we have to take into consideration that early Christian religious leaders believed it too! Jesus definitely has a background that we don't know about, but does it matter? no, I just think it makes him more awesome! thanks for reading, nell

Shauna L Bowling from Central Florida on July 13, 2015:

Nell, this is the first I've of heard of this theory. I always questioned the Immaculate Conception. It just doesn't make sense. I believe Jesus existed but it makes more sense that he had two human "makers".

What I don't understand, is if the church felt they needed to cover up Jesus' true beginnings, why have they chosen a so-called bastard to be the one Christians pray to? If the story of his birth has been fabricated what other stories have we been led to believe that are untrue? What proof do we really have of his powers?

So many questions and this raises even more.

Excellent article, Nell and so much to ponder...

Mary Craig from New York on July 13, 2015:

Well Nell, seems like you've picked a winner again! You never disappoint. Your research is impeccable. Whether I agree or disagree with this theory you have written it well.

I knew about the Immaculate Conception, having learned it in school. When things are passed down for centuries there is bound to be some discrepancies. Tell someone a secret and see how it comes out thirty people later, and that's the same year!

Voted up, useful, awesome, and interesting.

Kiss andTales on July 13, 2015:

Writers of the Talmud, which was compiled during the centuries following the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., represented the Sanhedrin as an ancient body. They imagined that it had always been composed of scholars who met to debate points of Jewish law and held that it dated from the time Moses assembled 70 older men to help him lead Israel. (Numbers 11:16, 17


Judaism was filled with such false stories, the traditions of the elders making up the so-called oral law that came to be incorporated into the Talmud.


As an example of one of these false stories,

Does God Really Care About Women

The Talmud quotes one Rabbi as saying: “Whoever teaches his daughter Torah [the Law] teaches her obscenity.”

The Mishnah (a collection of commentaries that became the foundation of the Talmud) warns against staying in the homes of ʽam ha·ʼaʹrets.

The Talmud quotes another rabbi as stating that “uneducated people will not be resurrected.”

By Jesus’ day, however, legalistically minded rabbis had added to it a mass of extra-Biblical rules, many of which were later recorded in the Talmud.

The point is the Talmud credibility can not be relied on because of bias quotes and seemingly prejudices.

Another thought here about Joseph JESUS

earthly Father would not be president over the Heavenly Father( Jehovah )who gives life !

not only to his first born son in Heaven and on earth , but to all his creations.

that would be the most important thing to focus on , because Jesus was a gift to humanity that we should not live to die but continue life in the future, even paid for are those that sleep in death they will soon return.

Notice the most important thing we all can focus on

Ac 4:12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”


Romeos Quill from Lincolnshire, England on July 12, 2015:

Hi Nell; wow; another thought-provoking, seductive and controversial Hub by you for which I hope to offer a few answers and hopefully put your mind at ease regarding your Hub title question:-

" Was Jesus' Father Really a Roman Soldier Named Tiberius Pantera?

As far as I've discovered, the soldier ' Tiberius Iulianus Abdes Pantera ( c. 22B.C - 40 A.D. ) was first suggested as a father of Jesus by a man named Celsus, a pagan Greek philosopher, whom you've mentioned, from the 2nd century C.E. who was vehemently anti-Christian, so there is an immediate bias there from the outset.

Moreover, if Jesus had been born of a Roman soldier ( who was a Roman citizen also? ) then he could not have been crucified under Roman law because, according to said law, a Roman citizen could not be crucified but would have been beheaded instead. Additionally, according to Porcian ( 248B.C ) and Sempronian ( 123B.C. ), Roman citizens were exempt from scourging ( verberatio ) - Jesus Christ was scourged before his crucifixion, resurrection and ascension into heaven.

Furthermore, crucifixion was reserved for non-Roman enemies of their empire such as vile criminals, pirates, crimes of treason ( referred to as ' summum supplicium ' ) and army deserters for which method of execution was later repudiated under the reign of the emperor Constantine centuries later according to historian Aurelian Victor, with the most unambiguous record of this form of execution being repealed under the Code of Theodosius, published more than a century after Constantine's own death.

As far as I'm aware, there is no evidence to suggest that Tiberius Iulinius Abdes Pantera was a soldier that served in the same region at the time of Jesus Christ's conception.

The slander/libel/hypothesis was further compounded by a man called James Tabor based upon the claims made by aforementioned pagan, anti-Christian Greek philosopher Celsus. It is also referred to in the Jerusalem Talmud, Tosefta ( Jewish oral law from the late 2nd century period ) and Qohelet Rabbah ( Ecclesiastical literature commentary ), and an anti-Gospel called ' Toledot Yeshu '{ ( ' Life of Jesus ' - this chronicle dates from the middle ages) ( yes; sadly anti-Gospels exist )}. They were written later, the earliest being circa 4th century A.D.

The ' Toledot Yeshu ' is unhistorical, full of wild tales and thus, dismissed as primary evidence by serious historians and investigative, biblical archaeologists as far as I'm currently aware.

The Talmud does contain an account of one ' Jesu ' ( or Joshua ) ben Pandera who was a disciple of Joshua ben Perachiah, a well-known and prominent rabbi of his time. This ' Pandera ' character was accused of sorcery, deceiving Israel and estranging people from God and subsequently tried, convicted and stoned to death. So this ' Jesus ' cannot have been Jesus Christ either based on this account alone.

Some sources:

Mathew-Luke. " The Bible Knowledge Background Commentary." Evans, Craig. The Bible Knowledge background Commentary Vol. 1. 2003. 146.

Tabor. "The Jesus Dynasty." The Jesus Dynasty. n.d. 64-72.

" We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts " was a quote by Al Franken ( U.S. Senator from Minnesota ), which I think sums it up quite pertinently.

There are so many letters, so-called gospels and revelations circulating out there, some of which I've read myself, which have been dismissed as Gnostic heresies, fabrications, distortions and subtle deviations from the True Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in the New Testament and some of which are mediaeval forgeries, most probably for the express purpose of raking in the cash ( what else? lol! )etc...

Here are just a few from a list I've encountered so far: videlict;-

i/Letters of Pilate and Herod. ii/Letters of Pilate to Herod. iii/The Epistle of Pontius Pilate. iv/The Report of Pilate the Governor to Tiberius Caesar at Rome. v/The Trial and Condemnation of Pilate. vi/The Death of Pilate. vii/The Lost Gospel According to Peter. viii/The Gospel of Andrew. ix/The Gospel According to the Twelve Apostles. x/The Gospel of Basilides. xi/ The Gospel of Cerinthus. xii/The Revelation of Cerinthus. xiii/ An Epistle of Christ to Peter and Paul. xiv/The Gospel of the Ebionites. xv/ The Gospel of the Encratites. xvi/The Gospel of Eve. xvii/The Gospel of Matthias. xviii/The Gospel of Peter. xix/The Gospel of Philip. xx/The Gospel of Thaddaeus. xxi/The Gospel of Truth by the Valentinians. xxii/ The Gospel of Thomas. xxiii/ The Gospel of Valentinus, and xxiv/The Revelation of Stephen.

The list goes on....but I won't, you'll be pleased to hear lol! :)

Fascinating article, nevertheless.

Yours Sincerely;


Nellieanna Hay from TEXAS on July 12, 2015:

It's all in the form of written words & spoken word-quotations and we all know how easily and quickly those are processed by readers and hearers and come out differently to each. If I say to my next door neighbor, "It's a lovely day," what he or she may register is that I have it better-than OR that it's not so great, we need rain badly OR that I obviously just don't understand that his great aunt Sally is ill. Add to my original statement that "It's an interesting day," and the possible diversity in interpretations multiply.

But a demonstration of kindness, acceptance, gentleness or compassion is seldom misinterpreted. Those are spiritual messages which transcend mere words.

Jewels from Australia on July 12, 2015:

I see you are quite busy following this revelation Nell! I don't think the truth will ever be told, and I often think we look in the wrong place for it anyway. It's an inside job, all spiritual work is an inside job. Perhaps the stories have been an almighty distraction from the truth, which is within and not in written doctrines and stories. When reading parables and gospels, when applied to an inside level of transformation they make sense. Applying it as a story to fathom historical occurrences, often makes no sense. If the bible's purpose was to divide and confuse, its job has succeeded. Paradoxically, internal transformation is confusing to the lowly mind. Go figure!

Mackenzie Sage Wright on July 12, 2015:

Wow, Nell Rose, I had no idea. This is very compelling indeed. Personally I'm of the opinion that if there was a historical Jesus, he must have had a father, because I don't believe in the divine birth but I wasn't aware there was any theory as to who that father might have been. Origen is not even a historian I've ever heard of, and I've done a fair share of reading about the origins of the Bible so this is very exciting.

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 12, 2015:

Thanks Nellieanna, yes I do totally agree with you. even if what is written in the Bible about Jesus' daily work and miracles is true he definitely never ever says that he is Gods son, in fact he deliberately states that he is the 'Son of Man'! which seems to me to say that Jesus knew exactly who he was! even if the Church decided to change it for their own means! As you said, its how he taught, spoke, and was kind that mattered more than his biological father, thanks, nell

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 12, 2015:

Thanks Jodah, yes one door opens then the floodgates do to! lol! I have a couple more up my sleeve after this one, in fact one of them really makes sense, but we shall see! lol! thanks as always, nell

Nellieanna Hay from TEXAS on July 12, 2015:

Fascinating, Nell. I've never heard anything about this. Now it's something to consider. I'm replying without reading other comments because it seems to need a personal kind of response. We all have many experiences and observations which inevitably 'color' our handling of a new (to us) proposition and possibility which could affect us.

My faith tends to be open to truth and to revere it, though I'm not sure 'TRUTH' is a realistic possibility to inhabitants of Earth. But whatever it is has my respect. A maze of half-truths, outright lies, misinterpretations & misrepresentations is not where I particularly expect to unearth truth. I'm interested in probing but not expecting to find the 'magic truth bullet' as a result of it.

For what it's worth, I'm not sure that in the traditional Biblical record of Jesus life, (sketchy as it is and as subject to tampering by those in whose interest it would be to insert or delete whatever served them), that Jesus ever unequivocally claimed to be the son of God, born to a virgin who was somehow spiritually inseminated by God. He spoke of his Mother, Mary, but never of his Parents as being Mary and God. He spoke of Joseph as his male Parent, in fact. It would be unlikely that he'd have known of this Roman soldier. He grew up with Mary and Joseph as parents, if that part of the story holds water.

The virgin birth was prophesied in the Old Testament, I think, and there was perhaps a tendency to interpret his conception and birth accordingly, but he, himself, seemed to have emphasized his heavenly spiritual father in his own recorded passages, whatever others may have claimed in his behalf. Even crying out , "My God, why has thou forsaken me?" on the cross is similar to what humans tend to think when our hopes are dashed and misfortune comes our way.

Then, because of his spiritual enlightenment, he says, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

I've always felt that Jesus taught that all humans are spiritual sons and daughters of God. I don't find that beyond the stretch of possibility. In any case, we are who we are here and now and we define ourselves as we live our lives.

I like Jesus' teachings of fairness, kindness and loyalty. He doesn't teach one thing and do another. He is, as presented in the traditional Bible, a good example of what he teaches & I respect that, whoever fathered him.

When I think about it, the entire 'reality' of this or anything else handed down by tradition and 'history', as we think we know it, is more tenuous and subject to interpretation than to actual 'truth'. Even more secular "facts" are tenuous. Even cosmic science suggests the tenuousness of all we think we know. Perhaps the only 'reality' is the spiritual, whatever that really is. Perhaps the only 'faith' that matters is in accepting the unknown and embracing the goodness that we can know and experience.

But to delve into possible other explanations makes sense and does not distress. Truth, whatever it is, IS.

John Hansen from Australia (Gondwana Land) on July 12, 2015:

Your hubs never disappoint on the score of interesting and intriguing Nell. I had never heard this theory before but it does sound at least a possibility to consider. There are very few actual records of Jesus life and the fact that the church has lied many times and only revealed certain texts and gospels doesn't' make all their claims totally believable. Even if it is true and Jesus is the son of Tiberius Pantera it wouldn't lesson his impact and importance in my eyes. If there are actually historical texts supporting this and it was a popularly held view at some stage it is definitely food for thought in the debate that has currently been active here on Hub Pages. Voted up. Well done.

Nell Rose (author) from England on July 12, 2015:

Thanks Mikey, glad you liked it, nell