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The Book of Revelation Was Written Before AD 70

Alexander has been a Christian for 46 years. Over the past decade he has studied 'the end times’ from a Preterist's perspective.

St John on Patmos, Nicolas Poussin (1594-1665)

St John on Patmos, Nicolas Poussin (1594-1665)

Introduction

In my opinion, John received the Revelation prior to AD 70, to encourage and prepare the Church for the events leading to the vision's imminent fulfillment. I believe therefore, Christ's second coming described in the Revelation took place during the ‘great and the dreadful day of the Lord’ in AD 70.

On that 'day' of judgement, Old Covenant Israel ended with the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem; the remaining survivors of the Jewish nation were enslaved and dispersed throughout the Roman Empire. All the Lord's promises to Old Covenant Israel were fulfilled by AD 70, with the establishment of the New Covenant Age.

Futurists, Dispensationalism in particular, adamantly oppose this view by insisting on a post-AD 70 date, in an attempt to refute Preterism. However, the AD 95 date is heavily dependent on the writings of certain Church Fathers, primarily a 2nd century quotation taken from the writing of Irenaeus, found in the works of Eusebius, Book 5, and Chapter 8.

I will attempt to explain why I am convinced the pre-AD 70 date is the correct one, by allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture. Thereby, affirming the Revelation was a vision of the destruction of Old Covenant Israel, not an apocalyptic event 2000 years later.

Saint Irenaeus

Saint Irenaeus (c130-202) Bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul (now Lyons, France)

Saint Irenaeus (c130-202) Bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul (now Lyons, France)

Irenaeus’ Quote: the only Grounds for the Late Date Theory

'We, therefore, do not venture to affirm anything with certainty respecting the name of antichrist. For were it necessary that his name should be clearly announced to the present age, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it has not been long since it was seen, but almost in our own generation, about the end of Domitian’s reign.’ (Irenaeus, Against Heresies).

I fail to understand why most scholars today confidently date the Revelation around AD 95 based on the above quote. The source of the statement is from a Latin translation, which does not instil confidence in its accuracy. I can only conclude it accommodates their 'end times' theory.

Several Church Fathers also wrote that Domitian (AD 51-AD 96) was Roman Emperor when John received the Revelation. However, it is possible that they too based their information on the writings of Irenaeus.

The Word of God is our final authority and it makes sense to search the Scriptures to find the answer, rather than depend on an ambiguous quote passed down by the Church Fathers.

Author

Author

Hebrews 12:22-24 and the Revelation

  • Heb 12:22-24 KJV But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The Epistle to the Hebrews AD 61-63 (Halley) includes quotes from the Revelation. The writer and the Hebrew believers were obviously familiar with the Revelation given to John.

The writer to the Hebrews, AD 61-63 (Halley), quoted and alluded to phrases unique to the Book of Revelation.

PhraseHebrewsThe Revelation

‘mount Zion’

Hebrews 12:22

Revelation 14:1

‘city of the living God’

Hebrews 12:22

Revelation 3:12; 21:10

‘heavenly Jerusalem’

Hebrews 12:22

Revelation 3:12; 21:10

‘company of angels’

Hebrews 12:22

Revelation 5:11; 7:11

‘church of the firstborn’

Hebrews 12:23

Revelation 3:12; 7:4; 14:1

‘God the Judge of all’

Hebrews 12:23

Revelation 20:11-13

‘spirits of just men’

Hebrews 12:24

Revelation 14:3-5

‘Jesus the mediator’

Hebrews 12:24

Revelation 5:6-9

‘blood of sprinkling’

Hebrews 12:24

Revelation 5:9

'On the Epistle to the Hebrews: 'In short, it is placed beyond all reason-able doubt that since the author of the Apocalypse cannot be supposed to have drawn his description from the epistle, the writer of the epistle must have derived his ideas and imagery from the Apocalypse.'

— James Stuart Russell (1816-1895)

St James the Apostle

St James the Apostle, Peter Paul Rubens (1577-1640)

St James the Apostle, Peter Paul Rubens (1577-1640)

James 1:12 and the Revelation

James is also worthy of mention because of one small but significant gem of information.

  • Jas 1:12 KJV Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
  • Rev 2:10 KJV Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

'the Lord hath promised' The Epistle of James AD 60 (Halley) contains the only reference to the Revelation’s 'crown of life'. James referred to the promise of Jesus to the Church at Smyrna!

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Is it unreasonable to suggest the Apostle James had read the Revelation?

2 Peter 2:15 and the Revelation

  • 2Pe 2:15 KJV Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
  • Rev 2:14-15 KJV But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Nicolaus in Greek has the same meaning as Balaam in Hebrew; John called the followers of Balaam, ‘Nicolaitans’.

The dilemma troubling the Revelation’s Church at Pergamos was the same issue addressed in the epistles of Peter and Jude. Peter even included Asia amongst others on his mailing list...1 Peter 1:1. He wrote that some were ‘following the way of Balaam’ which was precisely the charge against the Nicolaitans in the Revelation!

Since the AD 67 (Halley) date is attributed to 2nd Peter and Jude, the early date for the Revelation can hardly be denied.

This proves the Revelation is not a 'stand alone' book in the Bible; it played a significant part in the pre-AD 70 Church.

Nero

Bust of Nero at the Musei Capitolini Rome

Bust of Nero at the Musei Capitolini Rome

Caesar Nero and the Revelation

  • Rev 17:10 KJV And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The Historian Suetonius’ Chronology of the Emperors

‘five are fallen’ Julius; Augustus; Tiberius; Gaius/Caligula; Claudius

‘and one is’ John wrote in the present tense, Nero was ruling at the time John wrote the Revelation. Nero was Roman Emperor from AD 54-AD 68.

‘the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space' Galba ruled only a matter of months. He was the first of the 'year of the four emperors' in AD 69, which was a time ‘of wars and rumours of wars’…Matthew 24:6.

Four Emperors ruled in remarkably quick succession, which was evidence of the turmoil in the Roman Empire leading to AD 70:

Galba; Otho; Vitellius; Vespasian

The Temple and the Revelation

  • Rev 11:1 KJV And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Revelation 11 'The reference to Jerusalem and the Temple in chapter 11 seems clearly to imply their existence at the time the Book was written; and this, together with the expectation of Christ’s speedy second coming, accords well with the early date. If this view be correct the Revelation was the first of John’s Writings, not the last, though its subject-matter naturally gives it its place as the conclusion of the New Testament and of all revelation.'

— W Graham Scroggie, DD (Edin), Know Your Bible

John was to measure the temple, the altar, and them that worshipped, which strongly implies the temple was still standing when he wrote the Revelation.

A Quote from Adam Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible

Revelation 11:1 'And there was given me a reed - See Eze_40:3, etc. Measure the temple of God - This must refer to the temple of Jerusalem; and this is another presumptive evidence that it was yet standing. Revelation 11:2 ' But the court - is given unto the Gentiles - The measuring of the temple probably refers to its approaching destruction, and the termination of the whole Levitical service; and this we find was to be done by the Gentiles, (Romans), who were to tread it down forty-two months; i.e., just three years and a half, or twelve hundred and sixty days. This must be a symbolical period.'

The measuring rod was a building term. The rod was for the demolition as well as the construction of a building. Metaphorically, the temple awaited its impending destruction.

  • 2Ki 21:13 KJV And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down.

2 King 21:10-13 is an example of building terms used in times of judgement and destruction.

A Quote from John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible

2 Kings 21:13 'And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria,.... The Targum is, the line of destruction; and the sense is, that the same measure should be measured to Jerusalem as was to Samaria; that is, the same lot and portion should befall one as the other, that is, be utterly destroyed: and the plummet of the house of Ahab; the Targum is, the weight or plummet of tribulation; signifying, that the same calamities should come upon the families of Jerusalem, and especially on the family of Manasseh as came upon the family of Ahab. It is a metaphor from builders that take down as well as raise up buildings by rule and measure, see 2Sa_8:2.'

  • Rev 11:2 KJV But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

A Quote from Easton's Bible Dictionary

'Several remains of Herod's stately temple have by recent explorations been brought to light. It had two courts, one intended for the Israelites only, and the other, a large outer court, called "the court of the Gentiles," intended for the use of strangers of all nations. These two courts were separated by a low wall, as Josephus states, some 4 1/2 feet high, with thirteen openings. Along the top of this dividing wall, at regular intervals, were placed pillars bearing in Greek an inscription to the effect that no stranger was, on the pain of death, to pass from the court of the Gentiles into that of the Jews.'

It has been suggested by those who promote the AD 95 date of the Revelation that the temple in John's vision was not Herod's temple, since it was destroyed in AD 70. Nevertheless, it is interesting to note John's reference to the Court of the Gentiles, which was an extravagant addition, commissioned by Herod. Therefore, it is likely John saw Herod's temple in the Revelation.

Forty and Two Months and the Revelation

  • Dan 12:7 KJV And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

'to scatter the power of the holy people’ Daniel prophesied a sign of the end Old Covenant Israel would be the dispersion of the nation. History records that catastrophe occurred in AD 70.

'forty and two months' Daniel also prophesied it would be accomplished during ‘a time, times, and an half', which most commentators agree that in prophetic language a ‘time’ is one year, ‘times’ is two years, and ‘half’ is half a year, equivalent to forty-two months.

  • Luk 21:24 KJV And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

During the Olivet discourse, Jesus foretold the events leading to the destruction of the temple, Jerusalem, and the dispersion of the people in AD 70. He also taught this national calamity was the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy in Daniel 12:7.

  • Rev 11:2 KJV But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread underfoot forty and two months.

Jesus affirmed in the Revelation the timeline of Daniel's prophecy, which was exactly the duration of the pre-AD 70 Jewish-Roman War. Therefore, the Revelation existed before the destruction of the temple. Albert Barnes made the following insightful observation:

  • Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

A Quote from Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Matthew 24:15 ‘The abomination of desolation - This is a Hebrew expression, meaning an abominable or hateful destroyer. The Gentiles were all held in abomination by the Jews, Act_10:28. The abomination of desolation means the Roman army, and is so explained by Luk_21:20. The Roman army is further called the “abomination” on account of the images of the emperor, and the eagles, carried in front of the legions, and regarded by the Romans with divine honors.

Spoken of by Daniel the prophet - Dan_9:26-27; Dan_11:31; Dan_12:11, see the notes at those passages.

Standing in the holy place - Mark says, standing where it ought not,” meaning the same thing. All Jerusalem was esteemed “holy,” Mat_4:5. The meaning of this is, when you see the Roman armies standing in the holy city or encamped around the temple, or the Roman ensigns or standards in the temple. Josephus relates that when the city was taken, the Romans brought their idols into the temple, and placed them over the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there, “Jewish Wars,” b. 6 chapter 6, section 1.

Whoso readeth ... - This seems to be a remark made by the evangelist to direct the attention of the reader particularly to the meaning of the prophecy by Daniel.’

The Imminent Factor and the Revelation

The Revelation predicated the Lord's imminent return. So why do most Bible commentators ignore or misinterpret what is clearly in the Scriptures?

The Lord made it transparently clear on four occasions in the first chapter and four times in the final chapter. In my opinion, it impugns the intelligence of believers to teach and adamantly maintain the Revelation applies to a generation in the far and distant future!

It would have been cruel to say the least, if the Lord gave the Revelation to John for the encouragement of believers, during a time of great tribulation and persecution under the Emperor Nero, containing a message of His imminent glorious return, knowing the event would not transpire for thousands of years.

The AD 95 Factor

If the correct date of the Revelation is AD 95, what major imminent event took place within months or a few years of its publication? The answer is none!

The Healing of the Cripple of Bethesda

The Healing of the Cripple of Bethesda, Pieter Aertsen (1507-1575) painted a few weeks prior to his death.

The Healing of the Cripple of Bethesda, Pieter Aertsen (1507-1575) painted a few weeks prior to his death.

'Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of' Jesus in His reply to James and John explicitly predicted their martyrdom. Did Jesus get it wrong? Of course, He did not.

Topography and the Revelation

(Topography: the study of the detailed mapping or charting of the features of a relatively small area, district, or locality.)

  • Joh 5:2 KJV Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.

Most theologians assign all John's writings to AD 90-95. If scriptural evidence for a pre-AD 70 date were available, academic credibility would be seriously in question. Topography provides an irrefutable argument for the pre-AD 70 date of John's Gospel.

John told of a pool by the sheep gate called ‘Bethesda, having five porches’. This is a significant statement because the destruction of the porches took place in AD 70.

In John 5:2, John clearly stipulated ‘there is at Jerusalem’ not ‘there was at Jerusalem’. If he had written his Gospel in AD 95 he would not have used the present tense, therefore, John must have written prior to AD 70. See C H Dodd’s Historical Tradition In The Fourth Gospel, for further study along this line.

The following is a must read for skeptics who claim the Pool of Bethesda never existed:

A Quote from the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem

'The discipline of biblical archaeology and its resulting discoveries are forcing Jesus Research to undergo a paradigm shift. It is challenging the skeptic scholar because the recent discoveries of the Pool of Bethesda and Pool of Siloam demonstrate that the author of the Gospel of John knew intimate details of pre-70 AD Jerusalem that even Josephus failed to know or mention. He also knew things about Jerusalem that we did not know ten years ago. “The accuracy of the Johannine information is clearly established,” writes Urban C. von Wahlde, Professor of Theology at Loyola University of Chicago, in his work Jesus and Archaeology. John can no longer be read as strictly a theological work comprised of invented stories to illustrate its theological truths. Moreover, biblical archaeology is proving edifying to the passionate believer who can now point with confidence to the excavated Pool of Bethesda and say, “Jesus healed a disabled man here.” Or, they can sit on the steps of the Pool of Siloam, read John 9 and imagine how the story unfolded before their very eyes, bolstering their faith in the Light of the world.'

https://int.icej.org/news/special-reports/jerusalem-finds-validating-gospel-john

John 5:2 ‘There is in Jerusalem - Hence it appears, that St. John wrote his Gospel before Jerusalem was destroyed: it is supposed about thirty years after the ascension. Having five porticos - Built for the use of the sick. Probably the basin had five sides! Bethesda signifies the house of mercy.’

— John Wesley, Explanatory Notes

Christ's Olivet Prophecy

The Jewish people suffered the ultimate calamity when the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in AD 70. Additionally, the nation suffered defeat, devastation, and humiliation; the survivors were dispersed and enslaved throughout the Roman Empire. Yet, John failed to mention the fulfilment of Christ's Olivet prophecy!

A Quote from John A T Robinson (1919-1983)

‘one of the oddest facts about the New Testament is that what on any showing would appear to be the single most datable and climactic event of the period - the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and with it the collapse of institutional Judaism based on the Temple - is never once mentioned as a past fact.’

Robinson commented further saying ‘the silence is nevertheless as significant as the silence for Sherlock Holmes of the dog that did not bark’.

Speaking more specifically on John's Gospel, Robinson wrote ‘there is nothing that suggests or presupposes that the temple is already destroyed or that Jerusalem is in ruins’.

A Quote from Robert Young's Concise Commentary on the Holy Bible

'The Gospel of John was most probably written at Ephesus, A.D. 68, and, judging from the comparative purity of its Greek, after the composition of the 'Revelation' in Patmos.'

The post-AD 70 date for the writings of John was never an option for the highly respected translator and theologian Robert Young (1822-1888).

John's Demise and the Revelation

  • Joh 21:22 KJV Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

Not only is there conflict of opinion over the dating of the Revelation, the year of John’s demise is also open to question.

'If I will that he tarry till I come' Many Futurist scholars misrepresent John 21:22 in a vain attempt to support their view that John lived into old age and wrote the Revelation in AD 95. If Jesus has not yet returned and John has died, then Jesus' prediction failed.

  • Mar 10:37-39 KJV They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. 38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

'Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of' Jesus in His reply to James and John explicitly predicted their martyrdom. Did Jesus get it wrong? Of course He didn't. Personally, I believe it is reasonable to suggest John did not live to old age, but suffered martyrdom during the 'great tribulation' prior to AD 70.

A Quote from Robertson's Word Pictures

Mark 10:38 'Or be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with (ē to baptisma ho egō baptizomai baptisthēnai). Cognate accusative with both passive verbs. Mat 20:22 has only the cup, but Mark has both the cup and the baptism, both referring to death. Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane will refer to his death again as “the cup” (Mar 14:36; Mat 26:39; Luk 22:42). He had already used baptism as a figure for his death (Luk 12:50). Paul will use it several times (1Cor 15:29; Rom 6:3-6; Col 2:12).'

The Book of Revelation

Post Apostolic Writing and the Revelation

  • Col 1:23 KJV If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

According to Paul, he fulfilled the great commission during his lifetime, if the AD 95 date of the Revelation were correct it would be post apostolic literature.

Why would it be necessary to unveil the Revelation after the New Testament was complete? …Acts 17:6; Romans 1:8; Romans 16:25-26; Colossians 1:5-6.

A Quote from Robert Young's Concise Commentary on the Holy Bible (1865)

Introduction to The Revelation

'It was written in Patmos (about A.D. 68), whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac Version of the Book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus (A.D. 175), who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou, i.e. Domitius (Nero). Sulpicius Severus, Orosius, &c., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favour of the earlier date. The temple at Jerusalem was still standing (ch. 11.1-10); the exact duration of the siege is foretold, viz., 42 months, 31/2 years, or 1260 days; the two witnesses are to be slain in the city where our Lord was crucified; Nero was reigning at the time, for it is said of the seven kings of Rome; 'five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come, and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.' The five kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius. The 'one who is ' is Nero; the one who 'must continue for a short space' is Galba, who reigned only seven months. Everywhere the events are 'to come quickly,' lit. 'with haste,' or speed (ch. 1.1; 2.16; 3.11; 11.14; 22.7, 12, 20). The escape of the Christian Jews from Jerusalem to Pella is undoubtedly referred to in ch. 7.1-8, compared with Mat. 24.30.'

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Conclusion

Contrary to popular opinion, although the Revelation is the last book in the Bible it does not mean it was the last book written. The books of the Bible are not in chronological order.

Having examined the Scriptures in support of the pre-AD 70 date, ask yourself this question:

Can I risk misinterpreting the Scriptures on an ambiguous statement taken from the writings of Irenaeus, or should I allow Scripture to interpret Scripture?

Either way our answer will have a profound effect on our understanding of the New Testament.

What do you think?

Alexander Gibb

how-to-manage-and-make-the-most-of-metaphoric-language-in-scripture

© 2011 Alexander Gibb

Comments

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on July 21, 2016:

Ed Jusino

I appreciate your service and your positive approach to life, having read your profile.

On this topic, I have a very different understanding of the Scriptures.

The Lord bless.

Eduardo Amando Jusino from Horsham, PA. on July 21, 2016:

Revelation 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The Holy Father gave the Revelation to his son Jesus and then was passed to his angel to finally be given the vision to John; But which John? We could read in the Book of Acts chapter 13 that John the Apostle got near Paphos, Cyprus with Paul but that was not the isle of Patmos which is in the Argean Sea west side of Greece 377 miles away from each other. This distance was too far for neither of them to travel. But i can assure to you that it was John the Baptist and not John the Apostle.Why this revelation was given to John the Baptist and not to John the Apostle?

Simple! It could not happen 60 years after Jesus Christ crucifixion because everything was revealed to Jesus when the heavens were open during his baptism by John the Baptist at the Jordan river and there was no need for God the Father to revealed anything to his son after he was raised to heaven to watch and intercede over us at his right hand side. Meanwhile after Jesus baptism John the Baptist was in southern Perea when he was arrested and then he was taken immediately to the prison of the fortress of Machaerus in where he was incarcerated until his execution by decapitation. But one thing is for sure that his spirit was not decapitated in order to be that voice that cries in the wilderness to preach to the souls that are in Jerusalem that city of peace where people go after they die.

The Spirit of Christ says in,

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Where is that place of Asia? Well the Apostles spiritually elaborate about this place and give us the clue in,

2 Corinthians 1:8-9 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life. But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

John the Baptist speaks in,

Revelation 1:9-10 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

When John the Baptist said that he was in the spirit he was already decapitaded and he has been buried and is dwelling in earth in that spiritual isle where his body is turning to dust after his killing by Herod the King, because that is what Patmos in Greek means "of my killing" which means that John the Baptist is in that place among the dead where he was killed. This is describing a spiritual visionary experience that took him to the place of his killing "Patmos" but not to that literal Island so far away where he never went in flesh. Indeed, the whole Book of Revelation is made up of symbolic and allegorical teachings which must be carefully interpreted spiritually in order to understand it.

In Isaiah 40 God tells us about John the Baptist and his mission in the afterlife,

Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

And God also tells us in the same chapter in verse 15 what an isle means for him.

Isaiah 40:15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

The Isle is that place where the body of a person turned into dust while the spirit goes to that celestial place to rest in peace called Jerusalem. Is simple to understand if you do not mix carnal things and places from Earth (Judea the land of the Living), with spiritual things and heavenly places like the ones we find in that Book of Revalation which is a spiritual book that is intended to prepare you for that spiritual world.

All that prophecy of the book of Revelation was given to a prophet and John the Baptist was the last prophet because the Word of God says that in,

Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

And for this other reason it could not be John the Apostle because he was not a prophet and also all religions including the Catholic Church acknowledge that he was not killed by the Romans and the Scriptures are in support of this fact so let us read what the knowledge of the Internet has to answer if we ask; Why was John exile to the island of Patmos?

"No reason is given for John being exiled to Patmos, in fact neither the Book of Revelation nor any other part of the Bible actually says that he was exiled to Patmos at all... Modern scholars recognise that the author of Revelation clearly was not the author of John's Gospel and was most unlikely to have been the Apostle John. To differentiate John of Revelation from John the Apostle, he is now frequently referred to simply as John of Patmos. This recognises that the Apostle was not really exiled on Patmos because he preached the Gospels to the people till the end of his life; but this John is a controversial person not confirmed by any serious document until now. Before during the second century in times of persecution, it was decided by some people of that era people who assumed that the author of Revelation must have been the Apostle John, merely because of the coincidence of names."

The fact is and is not merely coincidence that the description of that John in the first chapter of the book of Revelation is the same description we find in the first chapter of the book of John describing John the Baptist. The Word of God comfirms this!

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Revelation 1:1 ...and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Matthew 14:1-3 At that time Herod the tetrarch heard of the fame of Jesus, And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him. For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife.

Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 14:2 And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.

John1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

John1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Revelation 1:1 ...and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Revalation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

This instructions by the Spirit of God were given to John the Baptist!

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on May 17, 2016:

Mark

Thank you for your interesting comment.

According to Halley the Church at Thessalonica was established by Paul around AD 51, ten years after the death of Caligula who ruled from AD 37 to AD 41.

Many believers would have remembered the evil perpetrated by the tyrant, a 'forerunner' of Nero, AD54 to AD 68.

In my opinion, it's unlikely they considered Caligula was Paul's 'man of sin' and had missed the coming of the Lord.

Certainly, the purpose of Paul's epistles was to end confusion caused by false teachers concerning the resurrection and the Day of the Lord.

What do you think?

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on February 21, 2016:

Willibrordus van der Weide

Thank you for your comment, it is a wonderful source of encouragement that my Hubs have been useful.

Willibrordus van der Weide on February 21, 2016:

Many years was member of the "Jehovah Witness" Church , but today i see how false it was some teachings and claims. Your work is helping me to become a better view about the reality. It means a lot

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on October 07, 2015:

Mozz

Thank you for your comment, it is a source of encouragement to me.

Mozz on October 06, 2015:

G'day. Wonderful work you have done to present a first century model so clearly and carefully. Your wide range of sources and the craftsman-like way you have placed each piece of evidence in its own setting and in the whole is very scholarly. Thank you very much.

Blessings

Mozz

Preterist LAB

Brisbane

Australia October 2015

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on April 21, 2015:

SwordofManticorE

Exactly, taking that into account the Book is not as difficult to understand as many scholars claim.

SwordofManticorE from Burlington on April 21, 2015:

Here is a secret that most churches don't teach when they teach their last days teachings while quoting from the book of Revelations. The book was written for the believers who were alive when the book was written.

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on April 19, 2015:

Joshua

Thank you for your comment. It is a source of encouragement to me. The Lord bless your Church.

Joshua on April 19, 2015:

Excellent...We are preaching these in our church, in Chennai, India. God Bless you Abundantly!!!

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on March 28, 2015:

Jlundberg

Welcome to HubPages.

Having your first Hub featured is an excellent start, this means it meets HubPages standard and given priority. Well done!

jlundberg on March 27, 2015:

Your welcome. I just recently published my hub about the book of Revelation a couple of days ago. In this article I have covered Rev 6-9. I will be creating hubs later to cover the other chapters after I see how this one does. Hubpages listed it as "featured" so maybe that's a good sign. I'm new to Hubpages. It's nice to meet someone that shares an interest in Revelation like I do. Here is my new hub:

https://jlundberg.hubpages.com/hub/The-Book-of-Rev...

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on March 12, 2015:

jlundberg

Thank you for your contribution.

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on March 07, 2015:

Dan the Man

An opinion is a personal view open to discussion, which is far better than intransigent dogma.

Even if someone could be raised without opinionated rhetoric, that person would still fall short of the mind of God.

Dan the Man on March 07, 2015:

The problem with opinions is just that. They are opinions and preconceived notions, which can by true or not.

No one has an original thought but God, unless you raise someone without teaching them any opinionated rhetorics.

jlundberg on March 04, 2015:

I will reveal something essential in showing that the earliest sections of Revelation were NOT written until the time of at least 66-70 CE.

For now, I’m going to just reveal the four horsemen from Revelation 6. In order to do this I will need to briefly describe a very important historical event, the Roman-Parthian war of 58-63 CE.

This was a war fought between the Roman and Parthian Empires over the control of Armenia, a vital buffer state between the two. Armenia had been a Roman state since the time of Augustus but in 53 CE, the Parthian king Vologases I put his brother Tiridates on the Armenian throne. Nero became emperor in 54 CE and decided to react to the Parthians in trying to claim Armenia. Nero sent his general Corbulo to fight the Parthians in Armnenia. In 58 CE, the battles began long the Armenian/Roman border. The Romans attacked and destroyed the Armnenian capitol city of Artaxata. Tiridates withdrew his troops and abandoned the city as it was burned to the ground. The Romans next attacked the Armenian city of Tigranocerta and they too surrendered to the Romans. Now, the Romans put their own Tigranes VI on the Armenian throne. In 61 CE, Tigranes VI attacked the Parthian province of Adiabene. Now the Parthian king Vologases I got involved and fought back against the Romans. At the Battle of Rhandeia in 62 CE, the Roman generals Corbulo and Paetus were heavily attacked by the Parthian and Armenian forces. A treaty was made. By this treaty, the Romans were forced to leave Armnenia and to build a bridge so Vologases could pass over in triumph. The Roman weapons were also confiscated. Rome made an agreement that if Tiridates would come to Rome to be crowned king of Armenia by Nero himself then further war would be averted. Tiridates agreed to travel to Rome to be crowned king by Nero in 66 CE. Nero looked at it as a major peace treaty and a great accomplishment in establishing peace between the Roman and Parthian Empires. This peace between the two would last for fifty years.

The events of 66 CE would lead to the earliest sections of the book of Revelation. After the Roman-Parthian war, we have the Jewish revolt from 66-70CE, the death of Nero and the Roman civil war from 68-69 CE, then the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 CE. These events were seen as the end times. Revelation came along claiming that all of this was foretold in the Old Testament scriptures. The author of Revelation gets the idea of the seals for the book from the Old Testament:

Daniel 12:4 “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end.”

The author of Revelation also gets the four horsemen from Old Testament scripture:

Zechariah 6: “And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots. In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses. And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled (pale) horses. Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord? And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the LORD of all the earth.”

WHITE HORSE: The white horse is the Parthian Empire. The Parthians were well known for their white horses. The Parthians main weapon was a bow. They were the only mounted archers in the first century CE. The Parthian Tiridates was “given a crown” when he was crowned by Nero in 66 CE (see my description of the Roman-Parthian war above).

RED HORSE: The red horse is the Roman Empire which was notorious for making war, taking peace from the earth and killing. 66 CE was the start of the Roman-Jewish war. During the years of 66-70 CE, this Roman red horse killed thousands and thousands of Jews. ”That they should kill one another” is most likely referring to the year of 68-69 CE (Year Of The Four Emperors) when the Romans fought each other in a civil war after Nero died. Red signified the color of blood that the Romans spilled. Red was the color of war. The Romans even named the planet Mars after their god of war. The planet Mars appears red when viewed from earth. The helmets of Roman centurions and higher officers were also adorned with a crest of red dyed horse hair. Red was the color worn by Roman soldiers -red cloaks for the officers, red tunics for the soldiers. Red represented blood and the color was meant to intimidate the enemies of the empire. All of this and the blood shed during the years of 66-70 CE is what the red horse signifies. The Romans were the greatest military power on the earth at this time. The sword was a symbol of their power. The Greek term “machaira megalee” was used for this “great sword”. The Jews looked upon the death of their fellow Jews from 66-70 CE as a great sacrifice. A “machaira” was a type of sacrificial blade. “Megalee” then was a “great” sacrifice.

BLACK HORSE: The black horse is the famine that struck the Jews during the year 70 CE when their temple was being destroyed by the Romans. You can read for yourselves what Josephus had to say about this famine in 70 CE from his Jewish War Book 5. The color black was the Roman color of death and mourning. In Roman poetry, death was called the hora nigra, the black hour. Scales or balances were associated with the way that bread/food would have been weighed during a famine. Ezekiel 4:10 states “And thy meat which thou shalt eat shall be by weight. Thou shalt drink also water by measure.” The phrase “see thou hurt not the oil and the wine” suggests that the black horse's famine is to drive up the price of grain but leave oil and wine supplies unaffected. One explanation for this is that grain crops would have been more naturally susceptible to famine years or locust plagues than olive trees and grapevines, which root more deeply.

PALE HORSE: Pale is the color of the dead. Pale, gray, murky, unclear, or lack of color was associated with death and the underworld of Hades. Hades was the ancient Greek god of the underworld. Eventually, the god's name came to designate the abode of the dead. The term "Hades" in Christian theology (and in New Testament Greek) is parallel to Hebrew sheol ("grave, dirt-pit"), and refers to the abode of the dead. The realm of Hades was also known as the Asphodel Fields, named after an off-white greyish colored plant that was regarded as sacred to the underworld gods. Though a field of asphodel blossoms may sound appealing and enjoyable, the Asphodel Fields were anything but. Gray and joyless, they were populated by the souls of the dead, who drifted about in confusion and sadness. The verse beginning "they were given power over a fourth of the earth" is generally taken as referring to the underworld of Hades. The line about “to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth” is taken directly from Ezekiel 14 to show fulfillment of prophecy; Ezekiel 14; “For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine (hunger), and the noisome beast, and the pestilence (death).”

And this is the earliest written section from the book of Revelation. There is no way that Revelation was written until at least 66-70 CE. Revelation then goes on to describe events occurring much later in the Roman world but that’s for another post.

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on February 14, 2015:

SwordofManticorE

Thank you for visiting my Hub. I agree it was not the best start to a comment.

I replied for the benefit of my readers.

SwordofManticorE from Burlington on February 14, 2015:

I would give the time of day to anyone who calls a preterist an idiot.

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on February 07, 2015:

Cav8000

Quote 'You said; "I decided to use the Scriptures to support my view that The Revelation was written before AD 70. After all, the Scriptures are the believers final authority."

I cannot even begin to tell you how wrong this is. By doing this, you are already set up to come up with a completely fallible conclusion.'

Please tell me your source of information.

cav8000 on February 07, 2015:

I meant Rev 1-3 address the seven churches and Rev 4-7 are the oldest sections of Revelation. There really should be a way to edit posts here for longer than 5 minutes.

cav8000 on February 07, 2015:

Tacitus was writing about Laodicea about 50 years after 61 CE. He was about 5 years old when the earthquake hit that city. It's difficult to believe that the city could recoup in just a few years. This is a minor point compared to the rest of Revelation though.

You said; "I decided to use the Scriptures to support my view that The Revelation was written before AD 70. After all, the Scriptures are the believers final authority."

I cannot even begin to tell you how wrong this is. By doing this, you are already set up to come up with a completely fallible conclusion.

First of all, Jesus did not exist as a real historical person and the gospels were not written until a lot later than you think. They were not written until AFTER Marcion. Paul's epistles were not in circulation and were possibly written by Marcionites during the 120's CE.

Mat 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation"

This one line is the biggest clue on when Matthew and Mark were written which was AFTER the Bar Kokhba revolt of 132 CE. The "abomination" was Hadrian building a temple to Jupiter on the old Jewish temple mound. There is NO evidence for the gospels until AFTER 132 CE. Irenaeus and Eusebius were both highly dubious and fallible and cannot be trusted one bit, just like Acts of the Apostles (so much fabricated history). Luke and Acts were written as a response to Marcion.

About Revelation; The book of Revelation was NOT written at one time by a single author. Different sections were written at different times. For example, chapters 1-5 were written at a later date than chapters 6-14. Chapters 1-5 address seven established Christian churches in Asia Minor. There were no established Christian churches anywhere until the early second century CE. Marcion established churches throughout Asia Minor in the 120s CE.

Revelation 6 and 7 are the oldest texts from Revelation. They were probably written before 70 CE but they are not describing anything about Jesus.

Revelation 6 is describing ROME and it's first six kings. The six seals are about Roman kings. They are the first six kings of Rome from Julius Caesar to Nero.

Revelation 7 is describing the one year reprieve from the Jewish revolt in 69 CE after Nero died. The 144,000 are the dead Jews (12,000 x 12 tribes) that were already killed during the initial revolt of 66 CE.

Revelation 8 is describing the seventh seal continuing from Revelation 6. It also describes the Vesuvius eruption in 79 CE. Hail and fire mixed with blood hurled down to earth is about the Vesuvius eruption. If the author got his account from Pliny the Younger then this was not written until 96 CE, the same time Irenaeus talks about.

Revelation 9 is describing the arrival of Vespasian's troops in 67 CE after the Jews tried to take of the city of Ashkalon. All the insect references here seem to have been influenced by reading Pliny The Elder's "Natural Histories" from around 77 CE. 42 months (lunar) is the time period from 67-70 CE.

Revelation 11 is describing the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 CE. "They will trample on the holy city for 42 months."

Revelation 12 is describing an eclipse that occurred in 71 CE. It's full of astrological interpretations that signal the birth of Jesus (not real birth). The constellations Andromeda (representing the mother of Jesus) and Hydra (dragon) appeared during this 71 CE eclipse and this is how the author is describing the origins of Jesus. The sun drives the constellation Andromeda away and she gives birth to a "male child (Jesus) who will rule all nations". This is a real eclipse from 71 CE, look it up. There was no Jesus before 71 CE.

Revelation 13 is about the possible return of Nero from the dead and about Titus and his involvement in the destruction of the temple in 70 CE. It describes "Judaea Capta". The number is NOT 666, it's actually 616 (papyrus 115).

Revelation 14 is about the Bar Kokhba revolt from 132 CE. This is an entirely different author than the earlier parts of Revelation. "Babylon" is Rome. The "winepress" is Hadrian's vineyard. "Blood to horse's bridal" is from the Jerusalem Talmud which makes this same reference when talking about the Bar Kokhba revolt.

Revelation 15 is most likely about an eclipse that occurred in 164 CE

Revelation 16 is about the Antonine plague that occurred from around 165 -180 CE. It also describes another Vesuvius eruption in 172 CE.

Revelation 17 describes seven hills of Rome and 18 Roman kings from Julius Caesar to Commodus. It could not have been written until after 192 CE.

Revelation 18 describes the aftermath of the Antonine plague and still hoping for the fall of Rome.

Revelation 19 is cheering for the fall of Rome after Commodus died in 192 CE.

Revelation 20-22 start making excuses for why Rome has not fallen. It was believed that Rome would fall after Commodus but then came Septimus Severus so excuses had to be made that they really were not too sure anymore when Rome would fall.

Revelation is complicated. It was NOT written by one man and it certainly was NOT written at the same time. It was most likely even added to and altered by Irenaeus himself. With a final version coming out around the time of Irenaeus, there can be no way to say it was ALL written before 70 CE. Just NO way.

Revelation is NOT about prophecies that can be applied to our modern times at all. These were prophecies that applied during the times that these people were living in and that's it. These people desperately wanted to see the fall of Rome.

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on February 06, 2015:

cav8000

Thank you for reading and commenting on my Hub.

In my opinion, The Revelation was written prior to AD 60, my Hub explains why.

Your statement regarding Laodicea supports my reason for writing this Hub. Due to conflicting accounts by the Church Fathers and secular historians, I decided to use the Scriptures to support my view that The Revelation was written before AD 70. After all, the Scriptures are the believers final authority.

However, I will respond to your comment.

A Quote from Tacitus

"One of the most famous cities of Asia, Laodicea, was in the same year overthrown by an earthquake and without any relief from us recovered itself by its own resources" (Tacitus, Annals, 14:27).

Laodicea was one of the richest cities in the Roman Empire. It refused aid from Rome, being rebuilt by the existing wealth of its inhabitants, which was obviously not lost during the earthquake. Substantial progress must have been made, because an amphitheatre was dedicated by a wealthy citizen to Emperor Vespasian in AD 79. If the city lay desolate, why build an amphitheatre?

Christians continued to dwell in Laodicea after the earthquake and John's letter to them was applicable.

cav8000 on February 05, 2015:

Idiots...

Anyone here who thinks Revelation was written before 70 CE has most likely not even read Revelation and certainly has no knowledge of the history of the area of these seven churches in Asia.

Rev3:17 "Thou (church of the Laodiceans) sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods."

It is a FACT that Laodicea was DESTROYED by an earthquake around 60-62 CE. Yet, in Rev 3:17 they are suddenly WEALTHY? Have you people lost your minds? There is NO way that Laodicea was a wealthy community before 70 CE after being wiped out in 60-62 CE.

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on September 27, 2014:

Diligent1

I look forward to reading the result of your research.

Diligent1 on September 27, 2014:

Searchinsany let me brush up on my Roman history for a few days and I will write back. One thing I am certain of is these numbers are exact and as such they will require an exact beginning reference date(s) to count from. Added to the soup is the 2300 days. Incidentally 1260 is very significant to the Muslims as they expected their Messiah to appear in the year 1260 A.H. which is a Muslim (lunar) calendar.

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on September 24, 2014:

Diligent1

Thank you for your comment. Would you like to go first? lol.

My understanding is the 1260 days began in early AD 67, when Vespasian began his campaign against the Jews.

Taking into account my boast to remain silent when the Scriptures are silent, I feel I will be pushing the boundary of private interpretation on the 1290 and 1335 days.

I have used history in my Hubs previously, providing I also had Scripture interpreting Scripture.

However, the best explanation I have read is, the 1290 days began when the Jews refused to offer further sacrifices in the temple for Caesar in AD 66, until Titus had gathered and deployed his army for the siege.

The 1335 is the total number of days from the Jewish refusal to offer sacrifices in AD 66, until the destruction of the temple in AD 70.

I am interested to know your opinion on this subject.

My Hub 'Daniel's '70 Weeks' Prophecy is History!' may be of interest.

Diligent1 on September 22, 2014:

Searchinsany, reading up on 1260 days here, in your view when did the commencement of these 1260 days exactly start? Furthermore, what important events happened on the culmination of 1290 days and of 1335 days?

Please provide historical documentation where possible.

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on January 19, 2014:

Mory

Thank you for your comment, it is a real source of encouragement.

Have you read my Hub 'Jerusalem was Babylon the Great, the Mystery is History!'? https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/...

Morry on January 19, 2014:

Thanks for your research and great authorities. I'll put a link to it on my articles. You chosen impressive and credible authorities. I was put on to a pre-AD 70 date about 1989. The harlot city has GOTTA BE Jerusalem. (Everywhere you turn in the OT Israel as 'the harlot' jumps out at you, especially Ezekiel 16, 23, Hosea 1,2,3,4,5,6.

This single idea revolutionized my thinking and has informed my Preterist context of the OT and NT prophets.

Many thanks again.

Morry. Australia. Jan 2014

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on October 30, 2013:

Thank you for your comment. It is encouraging to know that my Hub has been helpful.

SwordofManticorE from Burlington on October 29, 2013:

It has been 7 months now since I read this hub, and I have to say that I am more convinced now that the preterist view of the book of the Unveiling (revelations) makes more sense than the futuristic view. Christians need to challenge their church pastors teachings more often than just blindly believing everything they say.

William Kovacic from Pleasant Gap, PA on October 13, 2013:

Sorry searchinsany,

I finally found it. Thanks

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on March 06, 2013:

SwordofManticorE

Likewise, and it has been a marvellous experience.

SwordofManticorE from Burlington on March 06, 2013:

I had to unlearn everything taught to me by the church and start a new. My findings in scripture now are wonderful.

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on March 06, 2013:

SwordofManticorE

Exactly my point, it never ceases to amaze me that I was a Christian of 34 years standing before I was confronted with this view. I was oblivious to the simplicity of the 'imminence' statements in Scripture, perhaps because I was convinced by my traditional futurist teaching that seemed the most plausible.

SwordofManticorE from Burlington on March 06, 2013:

Rev 1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

"what must soon take place" and "the time is near" This alone indicates that the prophecy is to be soon fulfilled, not 2000 years later.

Great hub.

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on August 12, 2012:

sj

Thank you for your comment.

In Mark 10: 37-39 Jesus didn't specifically mention 'baptism of suffering' or 'cup of suffering'. In my opinion, taken in context Jesus had suffering and death in mind.

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on August 12, 2012:

CJ

Thank you for your comment.

CJ Sledgehammer on August 11, 2012:

Regarding John 21:20-23 "Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die."

The LDS church, as well as others, teach that Christ has not yet returned, hence St. John is still believed to be walking amongst us today. Sad...very sad.

Peace be with you - C.J. Sledgehammer

sj on August 10, 2012:

also regarding the below I have an opinion as to what Jesus meant by baptism of suffering, and that both James and John will share this baptism of suffering or the cup of suffering that does not mean that John has to die like James or be a matyr it just means share the suffering of Christ

Mar 10:37-39 KJV They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. 38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on August 08, 2012:

sj

An apology, having read your comment again I now understand the point you were making on Matthew 20:1-16.

A response to my request on ‘The End Times: Did Jesus Fail to Keep His Promise?’ would be welcome.

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on August 08, 2012:

sj

Thank you for your comment.

I agree with your understanding of John 21:22, but for some reason many today use this verse to justify their belief that John lived into old age.

My ‘claim’ for believing that John may have been martyred is based on the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Mar 10:37-39 KJV They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. 38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

Jesus got it right about John’s brother James who was the first Apostle to be martyred, did He fail regarding John?

Quote ‘…why does not church history accurately state so if they have stated all the other matyrs accurately…’ In my opinion Church history is helpful but cannot be taken as completely accurate and dependable, we can only depend on the inspired Scriptures and when they are silent we should be silent, anything else is speculation.

Once again you quote Scripture, this time Mathew 20:1-16 but don’t explain why, and I don’t understand your point. You did this on my Hub ‘The End Times: Did Jesus Fail to Keep His Promise?’ when you quoted Matthew 6:23, but did not respond when I asked you to explain.

sj on August 08, 2012:

please read and understand the scripture in context,

John 21.22

Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."

Does this mean he is going to be alive till he return? of course not

He gave this answer when Peter asked what about John, how is he going to die for your glory? He said please be concerned about what each one is to do as their duty to Christ and not to compare

I would point out the parable of Mathew 20:1-16 which means dont compare your reward when you follow Christ

and for the claim that John would have been martyred

why does not church history accurately state so if they have stated all the other matyrs accurately

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on August 03, 2012:

SwordofManticorE

Thank you for your comment. I agree.

SwordofManticorE from Burlington on August 03, 2012:

Christ returned A.D.70 spiritually. Or is He a liar?

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on August 03, 2012:

SwordofManticorE

If Christ has not returned does that mean John is still alive?

SwordofManticorE from Burlington on August 03, 2012:

Jesus was telling Peter that John would still be alive when Christ's second coming happens.

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on August 03, 2012:

SwordofManticorE

Thank you for your comment.

Matthew 3:10... I agree entirely with your understanding of this Scripture.

John 21:20.... Can you elaborate more on this verse, I am not sure of the point you are making here.

SwordofManticorE from Burlington on August 02, 2012:

Matt 3: 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

If you learn its spiritual message you learn that John was warning the Jews that Rome is already in Jerusalem and if any Jew does not repent, they will be killed and their bodies be thrown like common criminals in the valley of Gehenna., and this is exactly what happened A.D.70.

Also we find this in John 21: 20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on August 02, 2012:

sj

Thank you for your comment.

Context

In Matthew 24 Jesus prophesied the destruction of the Temple; the disciples asked Him when will this happen, what will be the sign of His presence and the end of the Age.

Jesus said ‘…This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled…’ In AD 70 His prophecy was fulfilled exactly as He described.

In my opinion, the destruction of the Temple, Jerusalem and the dispersion of the Jews in AD 70 was the end of Old Covenant Israel. Between AD 30 and AD 70 there was a transition period in which the Old Covenant passed away and the New Covenant was established. All the predictions Jesus made in Matthew 24 were fulfilled during that period.

Mat 24:21 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jesus said the great tribulation during the lifetime of the disciples’ generation ‘…such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be...’ Since Jesus said it, I believe it.

The majority of my Hubs explain why I believe this ‘End Times’ view. In this Hub I explain a little as to why I believe Nero was the ‘Man of Sin’.

Regarding the Two Witnesses and the False Prophet I could only speculate, and I won’t do that. I would rather admit that I am uncertain. When I ‘left behind’ Dispensationalism I also left behind wild speculation. I resolved that to the best of my ability I would ‘speak when the Scriptures speak and be silent when the Scriptures are silent.

When I was challenged to re-examine the following Scriptures I realized that either Jesus ‘got it wrong’ and gave false hope to the 1st century Church suffering horrendous tribulation, or all was fulfilled as He predicted. I decided that since Jesus said it, I believe! From that moment I have been on an exciting journey through the Scriptures that has dramatically improved my Christian viewpoint.

Mat 16:27 YLT `For, the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of his Father, with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work.

Mat 24:34 KJV Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Joh 5:25 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Php 4:5 KJV Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

Heb 10:37 KJV For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Jas 5:8-9 KJV Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. 9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

1Pe 4:7 KJV But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

1Jn 2:18 KJV Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Rev 1:1 KJV The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:3 KJV Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 22:10 KJV And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

My article entitled ‘The End Times: Did Jesus Fail to Keep His Promise?’ elaborates on the above Scriptures.

If you can spare the time to read my ‘End Times’ Hubs I am willing to clarify any questions you may have.

sj on August 01, 2012:

thanks for your replies, can you explain

mathew 24.21

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

surely it doesn't mean that is the worst time of trouble the world has ever seen also I am not convinced how you can be sure that the Man of Sin is Nero

Was the whole world having a mark on the right hand and on their hands to live

What about the 2 witnesses, the false prophet?

Also Rev 13:13 states

13. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

so that is still to be fulfilled!

I can accept some of your arguments that prove that some of the revelations have been fulfilled namely what happened to Jerusalem and the Temple Destruction but the rest is still to be fulfilled according to my opinion

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on August 01, 2012:

sj

Thank you for your comment.

2 Thessalonians 2: 8-11

Context

Certain topics are prominent in Paul’s Epistles to the Thessalonians:

a) Suffering, affliction, persecution and tribulation.

b) The imminent coming of Christ.

c) The imminent wrath upon the wicked.

Paul wrote to believers to strengthen their faith during severe tribulation. He assured them of the imminent Coming of Christ with wrath and judgement on their persecutors.

False teachers caused some to be confused by claiming that the Day of the Lord had already taken place. Paul reminded them that although Christ’s return was at hand, certain things would occur first; apostasy and the revelation of the ‘Man of Sin’.

2Th 2:8-11 YLT and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence, 9 him, whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, 10 and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, 11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,

In my opinion the verses in question referred to the Man of Sin, Nero Caesar.

Revelation 13: 14-17

Context

John received ‘The Revelation’ of the imminent Coming of Christ in Judgement. The purpose of the vision was to encourage the 1st Century Church during the Great Tribulation.

Rev 13:14-17 YLT and it leadeth astray those dwelling on the land, because of the signs that were given it to do before the beast, saying to those dwelling upon the land to make an image to the beast that hath the stroke of the sword and did live, 15 and there was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, that also the image of the beast may speak, and that it may cause as many as shall not bow before the image of the beast, that they may be killed. 16 And it maketh all, the small, and the great, and the rich, and the poor, and the freemen, and the servants, that it may give to them a mark upon their right hand or upon their foreheads, 17 and that no one may be able to buy, or to sell, except he who is having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Again these verses referred to the ‘Man of Sin’, Nero Caesar, who relentlessly persecuted the Saints.

sj on July 31, 2012:

convincing write up, can accept Revelation written before AD 70

if you will please explain whether the following verses have been fulfilled

2.Thessalonians 2

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Rev.13:14-15

And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17. And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on June 27, 2012:

Thank for your comment. Welcome to Hubpages, I look forward to reading your Hubs.

SwordofManticorE from Burlington on June 27, 2012:

I also have recently come to this belief.

Elijah7 from Israel - England - Hong Kong - Hawaii - Paradise on May 03, 2012:

Jerami - searchinsany...

Further details on the 1 Week = 7 years Prophetic Timeline Revelation are now in Jerami's hub comments section here :

https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/A-Day-equ...

Blessings....

† Matthew 7:13-14 †

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Elijah7 from Israel - England - Hong Kong - Hawaii - Paradise on May 03, 2012:

Hi Jerami : RE your quote :

"" Some scholars want us to believe that this command came forth around 450 BC when the command came forth to "Finish" that which had already begun.

I can not agree with that! ""

Why can't you agree with proven History ?

The BC date is ACCURATE.

Scholars and theologians (often) are NOT prophets.

And again : quote :

"" The longer we ponder the word of God, the more likely we will be deceived. ""

THIS IS DEFINITELY INCORRECT.

The LONGER we Spend with The Word Of God, THE BETTER - Amen

Finally : quote :

"" If there really was a devil walking the earth trying to confuse us, this issue would most certainly be of great importance to him. ??? ""

What do you mean "IF" ?

† 1 Peter 5 : 8 †

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on May 03, 2012:

Jerami

Your comments are always welcome.

jerami from Houston tx on May 03, 2012:

Good morning ... Please excuse me If I sound too bold in this comment which I feel so strongly about.

This just my opinion, … understanding the timeframe comparing prophetic time against our time is paramount. Without doing so, understanding prophesy is impossible.

I believe that when the Lord is speaking to a Man, God uses terms which is common to human understanding.

When he said, lie on your left side for 70 days, for each day will represent a year that Jerusalem lies desolate. God could have said eat 70 apples for each apple represents a year (or any other such comparison).

This is in no way comparing a day or eating an apple to the prophetic timeframe.

When God gives a message to an angel, he uses terminology the angel best understands. The angel then delivers the message exactly as it was given to him.

So what we are really doing is attempting to understand how angelic terminology compares to human terminology.

When God says to a human, It shall be 70 years, he is speaking of 70 of our years.

An angel, when interpreting visions never use the term "year" except when speaking of what a year represents to us.

To us, A year means 52.28 weeks

To an angel the phrase "Time" means 52.28 of his weeks.

Now, all we have to do is to determine how many of our years is in an angelic week.

The only place in scripture that makes this comparison is in Daniel 9.

All we have to do now is to determine when the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem went forth, because from that time, it shall be 62 weeks and then someone will kill the Messiah.

Around 600 BC (ISIAH 44:28) God declares that Cyrus will perform this duty.

In Daniel 9:23 Gabriel declares that the commandment came forth when Daniel began praying and making supplications.

For ME there is no further need to "Discover" exactly when this command came forth; For it is clearly stated.

Some scholars want us to believe that this command came forth around 450 BC when the command came forth to "Finish" that which had already begun.

I can not agree with that!

If there really was a devil walking the earth trying to confuse us, this issue would most certainly be of great importance to him. ???

God said it will be so,

The longer we ponder the word of God, the more likely we will be deceived.

I believe that Cyrus gave this command exactly as God said that he WOULD.

I believe the commandment went forth in 538 BC as Gabriel said that it DID.

I believe Jesus is the Messiah this verse is talking about.

Therefore I have no recourse than to believe 62 weeks in prophesy is equal to 568 of our years.

That is, until someone shows me something that I have yet to consider.

And thank you for these discussions.

Elijah7 from Israel - England - Hong Kong - Hawaii - Paradise on May 03, 2012:

Thanks brother - haven't seen that - will scroll on by...

This Subject TRULY makes my neck click...

† Matthew 17 : 10 - 12 †

"And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."

http://www.TheSevenThunders.org/C7-Music/I-Have-Be...

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on May 03, 2012:

My Hub 'The Last Days: Will Elijah the Prophet Really Return? explains my view on Malachi 4.

https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Will-Elij...

Elijah7 from Israel - England - Hong Kong - Hawaii - Paradise on May 03, 2012:

Glad you said that - SOME in the past HAVE made that false claim - OBVIOUSLY oblivious to The Word Of God...

Maranatha †

† Malachi 4 : 5 - 6 †

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

What's your take on This Prophecy ???

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on May 03, 2012:

Antiochus Epiphanes was not the abomination of desolation. Antiochus (175-164 BC) does not fit the timeline of Daniel's 70 Weeks Prophecy, the 490 years were fulfilled during the lifetime of Jesus’ generation.

Mat 24:15-16 KJV When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

'...When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...' Jesus spoke to His disciples and told them when they see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, flee into the mountains.

Luk 21:20-21 KJV And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

‘…when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh…’ Jesus also told His disciples what the abomination of desolation was and when to expect it, and to flee into the mountains; His generation was eye witness to the fulfilment of the most amazing prophecy ever recorded in the Scriptures.

Elijah7 from Israel - England - Hong Kong - Hawaii - Paradise on May 03, 2012:

searchinsany

Do you consider then that antiochus epiphanes WAS The Abomination That Maketh Desolate ?

† Revelation 19 : 10 †

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on May 03, 2012:

In my opinion the kingdoms in Daniel 8 are:

Medo Persian Empire…536 to 332 BC

Macedonian Greek Empire under Alexander the Great…331 to 323 BC

Ptolomies rule Egypt & Seleucids rule Syria…323 to 146 BC

Antiochus Epiphanes…175 to 164 BC

Alexander Gibb (author) from UK on May 03, 2012:

Jerami

Thank you for your contribution, keep in touch so that we may compare notes. I will make a point of reading your Hubs.

Elijah7 from Israel - England - Hong Kong - Hawaii - Paradise on May 03, 2012:

For what it's worth, after the DELETION of my Comment in the "What is the Question?" Forum...(have NO IDEA which person caused THAT to happen)...

The little horn IS "The United States of America"..

The Three that fell ARE : Germany, Japan & Italy.

The Fourth Great Beast IS Global and BUILDING NON-STOP RIGHT NOW.

† Daniel 11 † IS a Gigantic Prophecy of islam.

If you REALLY can take time to study and read (in media formats) the FULL DETAILS are here (several hours deep thought) :-

http://www.TheSevenThunders.org/Genesis

See you ...

† Daniel 7 : 23 & 27 †

"Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces."

"And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."

Maranatha †

jerami from Houston tx on May 02, 2012:

searchinsany

Though I agree with most of what you have said, I have to disagree about Nero being the little horn as interpreted by “GABRIEL” in Daniel 7:24

Daniel only describes his vision. Then Gabriel gives the meaning of the vision.

Daniel 7:24 “And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise; and another shall rise AFTER them. Going by how Gabriel interprets the vision this little horn could not be one of the first ten kings. After the first ten kings there were three others and then Hadrian becomes king replaces these three.

And I can agree with everything you said about chapter 11 also, remembering that 11:45 is speaking of the little horn. “And at that time shall Michael stand up, …”

In my way of thinking; whether Revelation was written before 70 AD or after has little consequence In comparison to identifying who the little horn was.

There are many points of interest contained in the book of Daniel which with very little interpretation, coincides with the entire chapter of Matthew 24. But to get the full picture we have to examine the similarities also found when the six seals are opened.

It is my opinion that the six seals are describing these same events as Jesus describes them in Matthew 24.

The greater number of pieces of the puzzle that we fit together, the greater number of pieces we see.

Elijah7 from Israel - England - Hong Kong - Hawaii - Paradise on May 02, 2012:

So you ARE THEN saying that the moslem antichrist empire, The First and Second World Wars, adolf hitler and The Holocaust, PRECEDING Israel's RESTORATION are NOT In The Holy Book Of Daniel or in The Prophecies ?????

"We" KNOW VERY DIFFERENTLY and CAN PROVE THE SAME.....

† Daniel 8 : 19 - 27 †

"And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, † and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. †

And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it."

SPOT THE NAZI HOLOCAUST PROPHECY - ABOVE HEREIN !!!!!!!

NOTE : "The LAST END of The Indignation !!!"

† Numbers 12 : 6 †

And he said, Hear now my words: "If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream."

Hallo.....it's a REAL Pleasure to make your acquaintance...