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Begotten of The Father Before All Worlds?


Test the spirits (messengers)

The Trinity doctrine teaches that the Son of God, as a member of the Godhead (theotētos – Deity), existed eternally as a separate person from the Father and the Holy Spirit, and each is not the other. The Nicaean Creed states of the Son, "And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds". Is this fourth-century AD traditional teaching something that can be proven by scripture? Are you willing to “test the spirits to see whether they are from God” (1 John 4:1)? If you are, continue with me.

How do we know whether a ‘spirit’ that delivers the message is ‘from God’? “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:”

We can establish that Jesus Christ existed before He came in the flesh, when we observe passages such as John 1:1 and 1:14. For the sake of accurate interpretation, I am going to translate the Greek because this “opens our minds to understand the scriptures” (Luke 24:25):

John 1:1: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [pros – to] God [Theon - object], and God [Theos - subject] was the Word.” You may not yet understand ‘The Word was to God (object)’ and I will expound on that. This does not mean The Word (Son) was facing or speaking to The Father; The Word was facing or speaking to ‘Elohim/Theon’(object), which includes angels, magistrates, and even prophetically, us (Ps 82:6; John 10:34). You can look up the definitions of ‘Elohim/Theon’ in the Interlinear by clicking here. “God” (Theon) as an object is rightfully capitalized, because of the divine state of angels, magistrates and ‘sons of the Most High’, just as “The God”, aka “The Deity”, aka "The LORD" is Divine (Col 2:9). You may find this a bit too challenging to comprehend; however, let’s move on to simpler territory:

John 1:14: “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

If we accept that God was the Word and that The Word was made flesh, that would then indicate that the eternal “God was manifest in the flesh”. This is true and confirmed in 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” Some argue the Greek does not contain the word “God”, but "He", so we must go to the prior verse to confirm the context: vs. 15 “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”


The Only Begotten Son

Let’s go back to John 1:14. Did you notice that because the Word was made flesh, we beheld the glory of the “only begotten of the Father”? What is the foundational verse of the Christian faith?

John 3:16 (KJV):

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

I guess this would then pose the questions, “What does ‘begotten’ mean?” and “WHEN was God’s only Son ‘begotten’”?

If we go back to Genesis 5:1 ~ “This is the book of the generations of Adam”, we can see the word “begat” used over and over again: Adam begat Seth; Seth begat Enoch; Enoch begat Cainan, etc. No doubt, the word “begat” means to give birth to a child. Nowhere in the Bible do we see a child begotten without a father and mother, even in the case of Jesus …unless, of course, you believe the Son of God existed as the eternal Son before His incarnation. If that be true, by what Mother was He begotten? Oh yeah! Egalitarians believe the Holy Spirit is the Mother! Twisted!

This then brings us to the Biblical substantiation that the Son of God, His only begotten, became the Son when the Spirit of God conceived Him in the womb of His mother, Mary.

I do ask you to “test the spirits”, yet again when it comes to Who ‘Fathered’ the Son. If the Holy Spirit is a separate person from the Father and is not the Father, He (not She) is the Father of the Son. However, the Old Testament calls God the Father, LORD (Yehovah or YHVH) and 2 Cor 3:17 clearly tells us that “the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” It’s too bad that the Greek doesn’t use all CAPS when referring to the LORD. Eph 4:5 tells us there is only ONE LORD (Kurios, Greek equivalent of Yehovah). YHWH is the LORD.

”But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” (Gal 1:8)

”But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” (Gal 1:8)

Another Gospel

Getting back to the subject of “begotten”, we could go to Luke 3:38 and observe the reverse genealogy of Adam: “[Cainan] which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God". If Adam was the "son of God", do we decide that Adam was not begotten of a woman, so the 'eternal Son' need not be either? In this case, Adam was created from the ground. He certainly had a beginning. Indeed, he was not begotten, but created. If we were to use this verse to show God could create His only Son without begetting Him, then the Jehovah’s Witnesses are right ~ Jesus was created. Of course, they believe He was created before He was begotten, meaning He cannot be God who created all things (as declared in the Holy Bible in John 1:3 and Col 1:16), where they insert the word “other” in their NWT; He (Jesus) created all “other things”.

Now, that’s twisted scriptural interpretation! This certainly contradicts the “Eternal Son” concept and why they, as well as the "Eternal Son" believers cannot accept the truth, that Jesus is the Creator, God Himself. Surely, if God created ALL things, He did not create Himself. Something cannot be ‘eternal’, if it was created. The truth is, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, when it comes to being called “the firstborn [begotten] of every creature” refers to His birth of water (the womb of Mary) and the Spirit (the Father). Likewise, we are ‘born of water and the Spirit’ when we are ‘born again’ (John 3:5), then called a new creation! (2 Cor 5:17) As the Son of Man, Jesus became the ‘last Adam’, the firstborn of the new creation! (1 Cor 15:45)

Is 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by Myself."

Do you see any correlation between "The Spirit of God [El] has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life" (Job 33:4), and "the last Adam became a ['ho' meaning The] life-giving Spirit"? (1 Cor 15:45)? The Spirit of God is The Spirit of Christ = The Holy Spirit (God)!!

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Rom 8:9 "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

How about the Mormons. Are they right? After all, if Jesus was the pre-existent, begotten Son that came in the flesh they must have been ‘begotten of the Father’ before being born in the flesh! THAT’S TWISTED, too!! God obviously copulated (since male and female are made in His image) with a ‘goddess’ in order to conceive Jesus, Lucifer and them ‘in the beginning’…oh my.

Bottom line is, there is no copulation in heaven, for there is NO MARRIAGE (Mat 22:30). The only spiritual marriage we see throughout the Bible is that of the Bridegroom (Jesus) and the Bride (the Church). The human husband and wife created in His own image (singular - Gen 1:27) is a picure of this; their children a picture of the ever-growing family of born-again believers (Elohim). Understand that there is only One Divine Husband and He is the LORD, the Husband to Israel (Jer 31:32; Rom 9 and 11).


He Knows You

Don’t you see the error in the doctrine of the ‘eternal’ Son? Jesus was NOT created, but is the Creator Himself. He is the eternal, Almighty God Himself! You think that sounds twisted? Consider the following facts:

Before the birth of Christ, the Jews only referred to ‘sons of God’ (Elohim) when it came to angels (Gen 6:4; Job 38:7) and the ‘sons of the Most High’ (Ps 82:6), those who lived by faith (Hab 2:4).

Consider also, the vision of Daniel found in 7:13,“I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him”. According to the interpretation given by the angel, this vision had nothing to do with Jesus, the Son of Man, standing before the Father. Verse 22: “Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”

You might wonder about God knowing Cyrus, David and Jeremiah before they were ever born. After all, Isaiah prophesied about the birth of Cyrus before he was born in 44:28 and 45:1. David wrote in Ps 139:16, “Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in Thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.” Likewise, God told Jeremiah, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5)

This does not mean God created these men before they were born, but ‘knew’ them. This is about the fore-knowledge of the Creator. In the same way, the Lamb of God (the flesh of God) was fore-ordained as written in Rev 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him [Antichrist], whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” The Lamb, Jesus, was not slain prior to that day at Calvary. Hebrews 9:26 confirms, "For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the age has He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."

Perhaps we can better understand Jesus’ prayer (as the Son of Man) in John 17:5: “And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.” Did Jesus have glory with the Father as a separate person before the world was? No. To confirm this, let’s go up to verse 1 of this chapter: “These words spake Jesus, and lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee.”

Acts 20:28 “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.”


Do You Know Him?

Jesus Christ has indeed come in the flesh. He IS the LORD God Almighty, the First and the Last, Israel’s King and Redeemer, our God and our Savior, I AM:

Isaiah 6:3; Rev 4:8 “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.”

Isaiah 9:6 prophesied “For unto us a child is born [begotten], unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Isaiah 44:6; Rev 2:8: “Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his Redeemer [NIV: Israel’s King and Redeemer] the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God”; “And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive...”

Isaiah 45:21; Titus 2:13; 2 Pet 1:1: “Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me [first person], A righteous God and a Savior [not two persons]; There is none except Me [first person]”; “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” [not two persons]; “Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ [not two persons]”.

Exodus 3:14; John 8:58 “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”; “Jesus said unto them [Israel], Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I Am.”

John 14:7 “If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.”

Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before Us.” No; that’s not what He said. “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.” May our LORD (Yehovah/YHVH) aka Yehowshua aka Yeshua aka Iesous aka Jesus Christ BE PRAISED.

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Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 13, 2013:

Isn't it awesome, Patty! So glad!! It's wonderful to see you ~ God bless you!!

Patty Inglish MS from USA and Asgardia, the First Space Nation on June 12, 2013:

I've been looking for the Lockridge recording for a long time. Thanks a million!

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 12, 2013:

Hi sister Danast! You might enjoy my hubs on the Old and New Testament Manifestations of God. I fully loved the study and believe anyone who reads them will either REJOICE or have a LOT to contemplate....maybe BOTH!

I praise God you see Him and know Him, sister! God bless you!!

Danast on June 11, 2013:

Excellent hub! We worship one, very complex, God! He is eternal and covers all dimensions. And, you are right; Jesus is God, God is the Holy Spirit, and Jesus is the Holy Spirit. One, eternal, complex God. And, of course, something that's eternal has no beginning and no end. He is the alpha and the omega, but this does not mean that He had a beginning and has an end. For, Scripture says that He is eternal. We, humans, live within the aspect of time (4th dimension), which is part of the creation. Time has a beginning and an end, but God [will] never pass away. He is the great I AM!

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 14, 2012:

DT, Angels are messengers; they are created beings. Angels are never called ‘the Word’, and speaking of John 1:1, of course you’ll go with the NWT, which is a false book. The article ‘ho’ for ‘the’ or ‘a’ is NOT in the text “The Word was God”. It reads in Greek “God was the Word”, which you can see for yourself here:

So you believe Michael was created, and Jesus is Michael, yet the NWT calls the Word, who became flesh, “a god”. Therefore, Michael (aka Jesus) was a created god. What does Isaiah 43:10 state? “Before Me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me.” Is YHWH a Liar? Who is the Liar? Can’t you see the error of your doctrine?! So DON’T expect me to take the NWT’s translation of “Before Abraham has been, I have been." The LORD, Yehovah, told Abraham He is “I AM” and Jesus was nearly stoned for blasphemy (claiming to be YHWH) for stating what He did, “Before Abraham was born, I AM.” You DON’T want to believe in the true God. Why? “The god of this age has blinded the minds of UNBELIEVERS, so that they CANNOT see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

Revelation is called “The Revelation of Jesus Christ”. Regarding Rev 1:1, you have to put it into subjection to the rest of the Word; capitalization can change the interpretation. Let’s read it in the NLT, since you like that version: “This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him [John] to show His [God/Christ’s] servants the events that must soon take place. [Restated here:] He [Jesus] sent an angel to present this revelation to His servant John.” I have placed brackets and capitalization to make it more clear. In the next paragraph (below), we will cover what is stated just seven verses later (verse 8) – pay attention:

The Rock that poured forth water for Israel is that same Rock that pours forth living water for ‘Israel’ today and for eternity. Who gives that water? Rev 21:6 “And He also said, ‘It is finished! I am the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and the End. To all who are thirsty I WILL GIVE freely from the springs of the water of life.’” Who is the Alpha and Omega? Rev 1:8 tells us, “’I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the LORD GOD, ‘who is, and who was, and WHO IS TO COME, THE ALMIGHTY.’" Okay, the Alpha and Omega is the Lord God Almighty, right? He is the One who gives freely from the springs of the water of life. Now, let’s go over to John 4:14 where Jesus said, “But those who drink the water I GIVE will never be thirsty again. It becomes a fresh, bubbling spring within them, giving them eternal life." Yes, the Lord God Almighty, Jesus Christ, gives the water.

You need to be given understanding. Your mind is blinded and not by God. Only Jesus can open your mind to understand the scriptures (Luke 24:45). I cannot, as much as I desire you see. I can see you CHOOSE to reject the Truth and this action is what will be counted against you on the Day of Judgment. You cannot claim ignorance. God once winked at ignorance, but is NOW commanding ALL men EVERYWHERE REPENT (Acts 17:30).

DT on February 14, 2012:

My friend, I do not believe that Yeshua is the class of beings known as "angel". Angel is the Hebrew word for "messenger". Archangel simply means "Chief messenger". For the calming of the seas, we need to understand that it was never Yeshua who did the miracles. It was always God the Father who did the miracles that which the Messiah did. "Worship" has been explained before. "Sacred services" are only done to God the Father. Yeshua receives "obeisance" which is also given to kings and Jewish rabbis as a display of respect. As far as 1 Corinthians 10:4. You need to read very carefully - "the rock that FOLLOWED them was Christ". The rock followed them. This is referring to Christ's sacrifice on the cross to which water and blood hit the ground. Additionally, the "I am" statements have been handled by various scholars - Greg Stafford, Sir Anthony F. Buzzard, and Patrick Navas. Yeshua is making self-identification claims. The most accurate rendering of John 8:58 (as well as John 1:1) has been determined by Jason David Beduhn to be better translated in the NWT. "Before Abraham has been, I have been." "The Word was with God and the Word was a god." Christ is not the Creator but the agency of the creation. I hope we can meet in person someday but I have one more question for you...If Jesus is God or God the Father than why in Revelation 1:1 does it say that Jesus was given Revelation? Clearly He can not be given things unless another party besides Him is involved. And clearly if He needs to be given Revelation, this displays a lack of omniscience.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 14, 2012:

Hello DT, Now, you just stated that Michael was created at the same time Jesus was begotten.

Was Adam created or begotten? The first-created in the Bible was Adam, the first-begotten (born) in the Bible was Cain. To imply that 'created' and 'begotten' are the same would mean that God has a myriad of begotten sons, for all the angels were created. He has only One begotten Son. And if only One (1) Son, we must understand there is only One (1) God. The Bible proves Jesus is God, not a created thing.

You stated in the Old Testament, Jesus name was Michael; therefore, if Michael was created at the same time Jesus was begotten, Jesus was begotten (born) before He was begotten of the Holy Spirit and Mary. You believe that? If He was begotten before the womb of Mary, who was His mother? He could not have been begotten, if He were Michael; He would have been created. Michael was never begotten. Michael is never called God's ONLY begotten Son, let alone His only son. Yes, angels are called 'sons of God', so there's something unique about YeHoWsHua.

Angels are not to be worshipped; therefore, Jesus is NOT an angel (Rev 19:10; 22:9; Heb 1:6, 13).

Michael would not rebuke the devil in Jude 1:9; Jesus rebuked the devil many times (Mat 16:23; Mk 8:33; Lk 4:8) and gave power to His disciples to rebuke the devil(s) in Luke 10:17.

Speaking of rebuke, He rebuked the waves of the sea, both in the boat and when He walked on the water, after His resurrection. I find it interesting that He calmed the storm with these words, "Ego Eimi" (I AM) - John 6:20 (compare the Greek with John 8:58). "I AM" is the name of Yehovah who gave the directive to Moses to set His firstborn (Israel) free from slavery (Ex 3:14; 4:22)! (because out of Israel, He would be born - tribe of Judah)

What have you to say to Job 9:8, speaking the Creator of all things? (NLT - your preferred version) - "He ALONE has spread out the heavens and marches on the waves of the sea." Who????

The Son of God is the flesh of God because He was also the Son of Man. The 'form' of God mentioned in Phil 2:6 is the word 'morphe'; likewise, taking the 'form' of a bond-servant in vs. 7 is the same. After His resurrection, He appeared to the two men walking on the road in yet a different (hetera) 'form' (morphe) - Mark 16:12. When He appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus, He was invisible (Acts 9:3-4).

We can witness the various forms (morphe) God took throughout the entire Bible: immortal flesh to Abraham and Jacob (Gen 18:2; 19:1; Gen 32:24, 28, 30); the Angel of the LORD (Ex 3:2; Josh 5:13; 6:2; Jud 6:11, 14), the Rock at Horeb (Ex 17:6. 1 Cor 10:4); and clouds and fire (Num 14:14); the flesh of the Son (Mat 1:18; Luke 1:35, 2:7); the 'dove' (form here is eidos) in Luke 3:22; the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Christ (Acts 2:4; Rom 8:9).

I've already explained that anytime Christ is speaking in the first three chapters of Revelation, He is addressing the Church(es) as He did on earth, as their High Priest. We do not observe this type of verbiage throughout the rest of Revelation. Jesus Christ was the flesh of Man indwelt by the fullness (does this sound like 1/3 to you?) of The Deity (not 'Godhead'). He always has been the image of the invisible God and always will be. To demote Him from Creator of all things to a created angel (and one that is not even the highest) is grievious, DT.

DT on February 14, 2012:

Michael was created at the same time Jesus was begotten. They are one and the same person. In Revelation 3:12, Jesus says He a) has a God and b) has a new name. If Jesus has a God, then He is subject to another person/being whether it be within a Trinity or whether it be Arian subjection. He has a new name because in the OT, His name was Michael. Jesus is God's Son. Not by nature but because God is His Father. When I read John 3:16, I don't read "God became His own Son" nor do I read "God gave 1/3 of Himself". I read "God gave His own Son". God loves Jesus and Jesus loves us. I believe God and Jesus are both there for us and they love to watch over us. There have actually been many people besides me who have believed Michael and Jesus to be the same. John Gill, Trinitarian baptist. Geneva Study Bible, and early Christian Hermas. I hope I can meet you in person some day to discuss these spiritual topics. God bless you and I am praying that Christ will strengthen you.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 09, 2012:

Well, now, this is very interesting, DT. I looked up Gnosticism and found the following:


"Gnosticism taught a complex hierarchy of spiritual beings that had to be worshiped and appeased in the order of their rank to get access to higher and higher beings. It also taught that matter was evil and that spiritual things were good. Therefore, when it was adapted to Christianity, it denied the incarnation on the grounds that a high spiritual being could never be polluted by association with matter. It taught that Jesus was a mortal man who had contact with a high-ranking spirit being called Christ. (Christ is a title and not a personal name. This is as nonsensical as teaching that Queen Elizabeth refers to a mortal Elizabeth who has a contact in the spirit world called Queen.) Gnosticism may have been a contributing factor in the origin of Arianism. A modern form of Gnosticism can be found in the Urantia Book. Gnostic ideas are refuted in the New Testament. (See 1 John 2:22.)"

Not that I agree with EVERYTHING in that link, but it's obvious to believe Jesus is GOD, the Creator, LORD and Savior is not Gnosticism, rather NOT to believe such is accused of this.

I'm not here to debate with you. You made a choice along the way to embrace Arian theology. I was shown in my heart and spirit Who God is and THEN I found out it was named 'modalism' or 'monarchianism'. That was just pretty awesome.

So, we agree that the Son of God was not around before He was begotten. You may think He was created or begotten before He was in the womb of Mary, since you think as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists do ~ that Michael the Archangel is Jesus. God tells us NOT to worship anything He created. For this reason the angel in Rev 22:9 rebukes John for falling down to worship him and states, "Worship God!".

The word for worship here is 4352. proskuneó: I go down on my knees to, do obeisance to, worship.

Rom 1:25 "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen."

The word for worship here is 4573. sebazomai: I worship, stand in awe of.

Now, when it is written in Heb 1:6, "Let all the angels of God worship Him [Jesus]" guess which definition is used for 'worship'? You got it: 4352. proskuneó.

So, you either worship Jesus as a creation (4573. sebazomai), which is a LIE, or you worship Him as God (4352. proskuneó), which is the Truth. Otherwise, you best not worship Him at all.

I'm not going to stand before my LORD to see if I'm 'right'. He's the only RIGHTeous One; the Only Holy One, the One True God. I will worship HIM in Spirit and Truth ~ amen. I pray He knows my name and that I forever hear His voice. Take care on your Arian journey ~ I will pray for you, DT.

DT on February 09, 2012:

It seems you have already made up your mind on this topic and I really wish to debate no more. Gnosticism is a theological term for someone who bases salvation on knowledge and what they know based from their private interpretations. To claim a monopoly on God as you do and say that your knowledge is truth and supreme over others is a form of Gnosticism, not Christianity. You basically say that if no one admits Jesus is God the Father they know a different Christ. This clearly shows you embrace Gnosticism since you believe you hold to a higher truth. Jehovah's Witnesses are Gnostics, Catholics are Gnostics, Oneness Pentecostals are Gnostics. God cannot and should not be found in a denomination nor should a mere man or system of men claim to have a monopoly on God as Supreme Truth. Now I will conclude with why I am an Arian so that hopefully, you can at least understand my perspective. I am an Arian because see interaction between Jesus and His Father and I see them as two beings who are one in harmony. I see Jesus praying to His Father and I see love shared between the two. They are one in perfect harmony with each other. I also see that Christ is subordinate and inferior to God the Father. I grew up all my life believing Jesus was/is God but I no longer see it in the Bible. This is why I am an Arian. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. But let's not fight each other. Let's wait until we get to Heaven to see who's right.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 09, 2012:

DT, I'm not trying to 'force' anything on you; I'm just quoting the Word and letting the Holy Spirit draw you back into the Truth. It is man that puts a 'name' to what they hold as Truth, whether it be 'Trinitarian', 'Modalism', 'Monotheism', 'Monarchianism', 'Mormonism', etc.

You asked "why wasn't the Messiah omnipotent or omniscient as well?" "He was made a little lower than the angels [human]" - Ref Heb 2:7-9 - and just as Rom 5:9 states, "Christ Himself was an Israelite as far as His human nature is concerned", it also states, "He [Jesus] is God, the One who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal [aionios] praise! Amen."

How many times was Jesus 'made'? Created as Michael in the beginning, then 'made' as a man in the NT? NOT.

The disciples even stated they knew Jesus knew ALL things in John 16:30. And, if you want to claim the Son (Jesus) did not know when He would return, the book of Matthew (24:36) did not insert the word 'Son'. What is the feast known as 'the Day and Hour no man knows'? Rosh HaShanah. He was born on Rosh HaShanah, and He will return on Rosh HaShana. Only a Jew would understand and 'hear'. Salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22).

The Spirit of God (God) is omnipresent, and we can witness this as the baptism of Christ. We hear His voice (the Word) - oh, but wait - I thought Jesus was His Word made flesh (John 1:14) - and I thought 'God was the Word' (John 1:1)? Likewise, we see the SIGN of the dove (not a 'Person' of God) manifest at the same time. Here, we see God in Spirit and flesh ~ omnipresent, different forms (morphe).

Likewise, the Spirit of Christ (the Spirit of God) dwells in all those who have received Him ~ omnipresent.

DT on February 09, 2012:

You keep reiterating lies. I used to be a Modalist myself but as soon as I looked into all different arguments I did not find much support for it at all. Nor did I find any support that Messiah was Yahweh. I don't know why you try to push things on me so much. Like "Yeshua is God the Father" and "anyone who does not believe Yeshua is God the Father knows a different Christ". That is just so arrogant and implies that we are to believe God was scizophrenic when He was on earth. Speaking of, you ignored my question on Philippians 2:5-11 and if God maintained His omnipresence while on earth, then why wasn't the Messiah omnipotent or omniscient as well? Modalism sounds even more ridiculous than the Trinity right now.

Further, Tertullian coined the word Trinity. Who coined the word Modalism? Does this not indicate that the Trinity was around before Modalism? Additionally, if the argument that the word Trinity is not in the Bible is what you are going to bring up next, then this would also prove Modalism false because the word Modalism is not in the Bible.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 09, 2012:

DT, 1 Cor 15:41 has been answered. If God will not share His glory with another, and His praise nonetheless, Jesus is both His glory and we praise Him.

Heb 1:3 is clear. The word translated as 'radiance' is 541 apaúgasma (from 575 /apó, "from" which intensifies 826 /augáz?, "shine," derived from aug?/"dawn") – properly, someone who literally "shines," (is radiant). 541 (apaúgasma) is only used in Heb 1:3 where it refers to Christ's eternal radiance – supremely reflecting the effulgent glory of the Deity. His eternal light breaks through all the darkness that keeps someone in spiritual ignorance (bondage), i.e. every resistance exerted by sin."

John 14:9 confirms 1 Cor 15:41 and Heb 1:3.

1 Cor 12:3 - ask any Jew who expects to see the Messiah come one day (since they don't realize they crucified Him). Even then, they will not believe He is divine, let alone God. He won't be 'born of God' as His Father, but earthly parents out of Judah. That's why it appears you think 'Lord-Messiah' is ~ a mere man who will be sitting on David's throne. I recently heard a saved Jew testify, "I accepted Jesus as Messiah; it was accepting Him as LORD that was tough."

Rom 9:5 confirms all the passages above. The Word of God is TRUTH. I'm not fighting it; it appears you are doing everything you can to hang onto the doctrines of men, a stronghold that could very be attributed to 'the doctrines of demons'.

As far as Tertullian goes, it was Tertullian (150 - 225 AD) who first coined the term 'Trinity' (God in three persons) in the year 200. He was converted to Catholicism in 195 and became an ordained Priest in the year 200. So, don't ask me to read anything by him. You may claim the 'early church' was subordinationist, but you are wrong. I will soon write a hub, quoting the founding fathers of the faith, including the years of their statements. I don't wish to banter with you, but am doing my due dilligence to share the Truth with you. That is agape love.

DT on February 09, 2012:

1 Corinthians 15:41 - different types of glory. The Father will not share His glory of being the Most High with anyone besides Himself.

Hebrews 1:3 - cannot be something you reflect.

John 14:9 - Jesus is saying He is the true representation of His God and Father.

Romans 9:5 - There are quite a few translations which read "God blessed" as in blessed by God. This indicates that the Messiah has been blessed by God with the ability to enact as God.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Lord-Messiah, not Yahweh.

I'm thinking I might e-mail you.

Additionally, you may want to look at Tertullian's commentary on Romans 9:5. Also, the early church was Subordinationist, (like Arians are) not Modalistic. And claiming that the Trinity is pagan is a straw-man which you wouldn't argue if you knew what concepts of it were present in Greek philosophy.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 08, 2012:

DT, Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD; that is

My name! I will not give My glory to anyone else, nor share My praise with carved idols."

Heb 1:3 "And He [Jesus] is the radiance of His [God's] glory and the exact representation of His [God's] nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power."

John 14:9 "Jesus answered: 'Don't you know Me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"

Rom 9:5 NLT "Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ Himself was an Israelite as far as His human nature is concerned. And He [Jesus] is God, the One who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal [aionios] praise! Amen."

aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os); perpetuual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):-eternal, for ever, everlasting.

1 Cor 12:3 NLT "no one can say Jesus is LORD [Kyrios/Yehovah], except by the Holy Spirit."

DT on February 08, 2012:

You need to read the full quote. Arius is correcting the heresy of those that DO believe Yeshua the Messiah was taken from His own will and counsel. His quote is hard to understand but he is stressing the Messiah's creatureship, not His eternality.

I looked up "olam" and it does mean "of old" as you quote. I still have a question in regards to Philippians 2:5-11. If the Father and Son were not two distinct beings, why then do we call Jesus Lord to bring another glory? Shouldn't we confess Jesus as Lord to bring Him glory if He is God the Father?

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 08, 2012:

DT, Micah 5:2 states, (NAS) "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of ETERNITY."

You can use the NLT or whatever Bible version feeds your doctrine, but I choose to go with the Greek word 'olam', which means: "always, ancient time, any more, continuance, eternal, for, everlasting, long time,

Or lolam {o-lawm'}; from alam; properly, concealed, i.e. The vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always -- always(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end)."

For this reason, The LORD God is called "The Ancient of Days" in Dan 7.

We can see the word 'olam' used in such verses as Gen 21:33, and for the sake of challenging you with the Truth, read it in the NLT: "Then Abraham planted a tamarisk tree at Beersheba, and there he worshiped the LORD, the Eternal [olam] God." This says the LORD (Yehovah) is the Eternal God.

"[The Son] does not derive His subsistence from any matter; but that by His own will and counsel He has subsisted before time and before ages as perfect God." (taken from your first comment above). Hopefully, you will come to understand.

DT on February 08, 2012:

Again, I respectfully disagree. Micah 5:2 says Messiah's origins are from the distant past. God does not have origins. Messiah has origins demonstrating Him to be a created being.

Additionally, I would not consider myself a Christian. I would consider myself a lover of the Messiah. God bless.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 07, 2012:

I'm GLAD, DT, that you came by to find the answer to your question regarding John 3:16. I pray you will read the other links I suggested for you, especially "A RAM for Abraham" and "With His OWN Blood".

I hope you can 'see' that Michael was created before Jesus Christ was begotten. This is why Michael cannot be Jesus or vise versa. God was not created; The Word had no beginning; He is the eternal LORD God Almighty. He came IN the flesh, begotten of the Almighty Holy Spirit; His flesh died and rose again, and He dwells is us by His Spirit to this day.

Yes, you are welcome to email me. Blessings to you as well.

DT on February 07, 2012:

Some of them say that the Son is an eructation, others that he is a production, others that he is also unbegotten. These are impieties to which we cannot listen, even though the heretics threaten us with a thousand deaths. But we say and believe and have taught, and do teach, that the Son is not unbegotten, nor in any way part of the unbegotten; and that he does not derive his subsistence from any matter; but that by his own will and counsel he has subsisted before time and before ages as perfect God, only begotten and unchangeable, and that before he was begotten, or created, or purposed, or established, he was not. For he was not unbegotten. We are persecuted, because we say that the Son has a beginning, but that God is without beginning.

--Dr. Arius

I'll probably send an e-mail soon. God bless.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on October 17, 2011:

Hi brother Dave, you know I love ya! I know you can respectully consider my response without offense. Do you believe what the written Word of God states? That God is The Spirit? Do you believe He created all things? Is it possible for invisible Spirit to create? He created by speaking (His Word) and He gave life by breathing (His Spirit). If God needed a form to touch anything (i.e. putting together a man from the earth or forming his wife from his rib), would He need an image? That image of His invisible Spirit is His Christ.

The Spirit of God [El] made man and gave him life, as shown in Job 33:4 "The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty has given me life." Check out 2 Thes 2:8 "Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming." Whose breath? Whose coming? The LORD, Jesus Christ! We don't need to split God into three persons to understand this is what the written Word states.

Salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22) and they know and believe that "Our image" in Gen 2:26 is in reference to Elohim (without the definite article 'The'), meaning the governing body of the magistrates and angels (levels of authority and purpose). For, if you look at the next verse 1:27 God indeed man man in His own image (singular) = soul, spirit, mind, heart, singing, even visible, bodily image.

The angels were created before the earth was, according to Job 38:4-7. The earth was there, but without form, covered with water (Gen 1:2). God was speaking to His heavenly host in Gen 1:26. That verse also, does not start out with "Let Us make man", but the Hebrew is translated, "said God make man", so the angels had no part in the creation of man. Again, go to the next verse (27) and be reminded that God's image is singular.

The Jews know what a 'son' is; either created (i.e. angels and Adam) or born (Adam beget Seth, etc.). God was not the Son until He was either created or born ~ in the womb, He was both. God took on human form (morphe) and the likeness (schema) of a bond-servant to shed His Own blood for humanity. Pretty incredible, huh?

If you wish to believe in the 'eternal Son', who had no beginning ~ by Whom was He begotten? If He is God's "only begotten Son", He was either created or born and is not eternal. The flesh and blood of God lived for 33 years in all eternity. He always was, is and always will be. One LORD, One Creator, One Savior, One Shepherd, One God! Praise Him forevermore.

Dave Mathews from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA on October 17, 2011:

Judah's Daughter dear sister: According to GENESIS:1:

1-2; At the beginning of creation God created and in verse 2;"And the 'spirit' of God, moved upon the waters.

This would lead one to understand that God and the Spirit of God carried out creation.

From GENESIS: 1:2 up to GENESIS:1:25; God speaks and the Holy Spirit carries out what God speaks.

It is not until verse 26 do we understand the presence of Jesus in creation when God creates man and does so in "Our Image" not just God's image, not in the image of God and His spirit, but "Our Image" meaning that Jesus was present. "Our image" referring to man being spirit and having mind and soul.

Jesus may have assisted the Holy Spirit in the first 25 verses, but in truth, there is no mention of Him being present until God creates man. I feel that there is something in this with Adam being the created "Son" and Jesus being the 'Begotten Son' that so many times, Jesus in the Gospels refers to Himself as "The Son of Man" rather than the "Son of God" even after God acknowledges Jesus as His Son, after Jesus is baptized by John.

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