Know my Heart
Before we begin, I would like to share the intent of my heart, the purpose of this hub. You may sense pain, grieving, pleading and a heart of prayer for all who read. I think of Psalm 98:9, which states, “He will judge the world”. The word ‘judge’ is ‘shaphat’ (avenge). The word ‘world’ is ‘tevel’ (confusion). I pray He will use me for this purpose, to bring clarity to His Divinity and identity to His flock!
If you begin reading and feel offended, it is not my intent. I pray you will read to the end and let the Lord confirm His truth to you, for He does this when we call upon Him, for He is the Spirit of Truth. Amen.
Did you KNOW?
Have you read 1 John 5:7-8? This is what it says in the NAS, “For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”
Yet, if you read the same verses in the KJV we get a lot more: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” Check out the actual Greek wording here. Notice the footnote states, "(not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)"
WHY IS THERE A DIFFERENCE?
I looked this up and found there historical question amongst biblical scholars as to the authenticity of this specific passage of scripture. You can read about it on Wikipedia. Truly, the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth” were NOT in any Greek manuscript prior to the late 15th century! This is why this 'insertion' has a name: The Joahnnine Comma or the Comma Johannium.
Furthermore, Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” didn’t originally contain the bolded text, but stated, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations in My name”! It didn't even include baptism! What’s the clue? Even if one were to read this text in the KJV, notice the word 'name' is indeed singular. Considering Mat 28:19 was a direct command of Jesus Christ before His ascension, do you see the Apostles carrying out this command of utilizing "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" ANYWHERE in the Bible? No. Rather, they baptized "in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 2:38; 10:48; 19:5). The inserted text was added later!!
"The Baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the 2nd century (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 2, pg 263)"
It’s insertions like these that have fostered abounding error in the doctrine of God: is He One LORD, as the first Commandment states or is He really three ~ maybe two? Even well-versed Christians KNOW the word 'Trinity' is NOT found in the Bible anywhere...thus, the concept of our eternal LORD God has become highly thwarted. Even Messianic Jews, the “firstborn of God”*, do not believe in a trinity.
1 Tim 3:16 is truth: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
The LORD our God is One LORD
If you haven’t read the hub, “Let Me Tell You WHO GOD IS!”, I recommend it, as I can summarize it here, but the inductive study results give you a very clear picture of who God is. He is not three separate entities. I was raised with the ‘trinity’ doctrine, and yet God truly revealed Himself to me as ONE LORD. Okay, so the word ‘one’ is tricky. I will attempt to summarize this as well, but it is more inductively explained in my hub “GOD: Let Us Make Man In Our Image?”
The Bible states that God is spirit (John 4:24). The word ‘spirit’ in this verse is the Greek word ‘pneuma’, which is the same as the Hebrew word ‘ruach’. The Bible states God is holy. God is the Holy Spirit. Of the multitude of scriptures that confirm this fact, just look at Isa 6:3 and Rev 4:8. We know God created man, right? Check out Job 33:4: "The Spirit [ruach] of God [El] has made me, And the breath [neshamah] of the Almighty gives me life."
Did not the Spirit of God overshadow Mary to beget the Son of God? Did you catch that? If the Holy Spirit were a third person of a 'trinity', and separate from the Father, God would not be the Father of the Son, but the Holy Spirit would be. We are all familiar with the passages that state clearly that Jesus is the Father. Read Isa 9:6, Mat 1:23 and John 14:8-9. Likewise, for an inductive study on the identity of Jesus Christ, I have a hub called “Who Do You Say That I AM?”
Father, Word, Holy Ghost
Whether or not 1 John 5:7 (KJV) should or shouldn’t be in the Bible, let’s observe it in a Biblical context: “three that bear record in heaven”. In my hub, "Let Me Tell You WHO GOD IS!" we can really see the order in which God revealed Himself to mankind. God, the Holy Spirit, manifested Himself to all the fathers of faith, right up to Israel (Jews) in Spirit. He also revealed Himself in the flesh to Abraham (Gen 18) and even Jacob (Gen 32:28-30). Believe it or not, this was His Christ, Yeshua (Jesus), the image of the invisible God! (Col 1:15).
Some think the ‘Trinity’ visited Abraham, but the two men that were with the LORD went on to Sodom and Gomorrah to rescue Lot (v. 22; 19:1), while the LORD stayed behind. Those two men were angels! God showed Himself as clouds by day and fire by night to Israel. He called Israel His firstborn son (*Ex 4:22) and thus He was and is Her Father, for out of Her, He would be born! The Prophets (i.e. Isaiah) wrote of the coming Son, that His name would be called Mighty God and everlasting Father! Well, I'm calling Him by that name; are you?
Thus, we get to John 1:1 “The Word was with [pros - to] God [theon - object] and God [Theos - subject]” was the Word" (Θεος ην ο λογος) and 1:14 “And the Word became flesh”. This is the second way God revealed Himself to Man. In my hub, God: Let Us Make Man in Our Image? it is revealed that the Greek word for "with" God is "pros", meaning "to" God, not "par", meaning "beside" God. He was born out of Israel, and indeed said to the Jews in John 10:34-35, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods [elohim/theos]'? [cross-reference with Ps 82:6]. If he called them gods, to [pros] whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?” Now, this is tricky; it sounds like Jesus just said He is the Son of elohim (Israel). The Word was certainly 'to elohim (God)', with this understanding. Truly, Jesus was the Son of God, but not in a ‘trinity’ manner. He was the image (tselem/eikon - spiritual nature) and form (morphe) of the invisible God (Col 1:15), and was made in the likeness (homoioma) of man, taking the form (morphe) of a bond-servant (Phil 2:7). Therefore, He also referred to Himself as the Son of Man.
Why did the LORD not just appear on earth in the flesh as He did in the Old Testament? Because heavenly bodies do not shed blood (1 Cor 15:50). He had to be born of the flesh in order to die on the cross for our sins. Acts 20:28 tells us that God purcahsed the Church with His OWN BLOOD. God Himself said in Isa 43:11; 45:21 and Hos 13:4 "There is no Savior besides Me."
Notice what Jesus told His disciples, after His resurrection, in John 14:18, “I will not leave you as orphans [an orphan is one whose parent has died]; I will come to you.” In this passage, Jesus let them know the Holy Spirit would come soon to indwell them, which happened on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2). Do you doubt that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, which is the Spirit of God? Consider Rom 8:9, “However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.” What, do we have two or three spirits living within us? How do you explain 1 Peter 1:11? “seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them [the Prophets of old] was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.”
We do need to address Jesus stating, "I will send you 'another' Comforter" (John 14:16), as some seem to think this means a 'different' entity. What is the Greek word used in this passage? It is 'allos', meaning 'more of the same'; while the Greek word for 'another' as in 'different' is G2087 'heteros'. Check out Mark 16:12 "After that [His resurrection] He appeared in another [heteros] form [morphe] unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country." They had walked, talked and eaten with Jesus (prior to His death), yet now did not recognize Him! After His ascension, when Jesus later appeared to Saul, He was invisible (Acts 22). Yes, God is invisible (1 Tim 1:15).
Spirit, Water and Blood
Now, let’s correlate the “three that bear record in heaven” with the “three that bear witness in earth”.
We saw that God was first manifested to Man in Spirit.
We saw that God was then manifested to Man in the flesh. The only begotten [physically born] Son was born of water (the womb). While doctrines wish to align this with water baptism, this is NOT what this passage is talking about in the context of John 3. Truly, we must first be born of water (the womb; the flesh) to be "born again" of the Spirit (by His blood).
We saw that God’s purpose for being born of a woman was to shed His blood on the cross, for the remission of sins. The Spirit (God), Water (born) and Blood (died) - the gospel in a verse!
Thus, we go back to square one, but with a greater result. Jesus is once again Spirit, the Holy Spirit that indwells every believer that comes to Him by faith. As it was in the beginning, even at the time of Abraham, the people of God were saved by faith. If you read Hebrews 11, you will not see the Law of Moses mentioned once. Why? This is the FAITH chapter and the Law is not of faith! (Gal 3:12) The Law was later added because of the transgressions of Israel (Gal 3:19), and was then nailed to the cross (Col 2:14) ~ taking us back to the original Covenant of salvation by grace through faith because of the blood!
CONFESSION of FAITH
What is the confession of faith that saves us? Let’s read Rom 10:9: “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord [Kurios], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” Does this separate God from Jesus because “God raised Him from the dead”? What about John 2:19-21 that clearly quote Jesus saying, "in three days I will raise it up"? And yet Acts 8:11 states the Spirit of God raised Him from the dead! There is no contradiction, when you KNOW who God is; amen,
What’s the revelation in the confession of faith in Rom 10:9? Did you know the Hebrew word for the Greek word 'Kurios' is Yehovah (YHWH)? Have you confessed with your mouth that Jesus is LORD (Yehovah)?
Do you need a second 'witness' found in the Word? Look at 1 Cor 12:3: "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord [Kurios]," except by the Holy Spirit. Is His Spirit in YOU?
Is Jesus a lesser god, or an equal god separate from the Father? There's more and I invite to explore. Is Jesus Yehovah Elohim (LORD God) or merely a lesser Lord? Will you be one that says, “Lord, Lord” and are told to “Depart from Me, for I never knew you”? Let me leave you with the following passages:
1 Tim 4:10: “we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior”.
1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."
I sincerely pray the Lord Jesus Christ reveal Himself to each one that loves Him, in His Holy Name and by His Spirit; Amen.
Don't Let the Typo's Detract from the Truth
An Outstanding Hub by einron!
- GOD'S MANIFESTATIONS: The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ
THE HOLY SPIRIT: GOD'S POWER FORCE The Bible describes the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of the One True God in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament as the Spirit of Jesus Christ. There is no distinction...
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 08, 2016:
Well, Harold, Jesus was a man (He called Himself the Son of Man and only the Son of God [Elohim] when He was speaking to Israel in John 10:34-36, quoting Deut 4:6 "Ye are Elohim....so why do you say I am blaspheming because I said I am the Son of Elohim [Israel]"? Jesus was not a man just like you and I, for we have two earthly parents. Do you believe the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary or was Joseph Jesus' father (or someone else)? Now, if the Holy Spirit is one of the three persons of the Trinity, then how many Fathers does Jesus, the Son of Man, have? And how can God the Father, if separate or distinct from the Holy Spirit be the Father if He Himself did not overshadow Mary? Does the Bible not say that God is Spirit? Is God Holy? How many Spirits are there in the Trinity?
None of the Scriptures state Jesus is God? I guess you haven't read my hubs on the matter -- please do and feel free to comment.
Yes, God has one name. It is YHWH and I have a hub about this very subject entitled "Is JESUS the Name of God?" (for some claim God's name has always been Jesus and will always be Jesus, which contradicts Scripture). Yehowshua means YHWH is Salvation. His Name, as the Son of Man was to be called JESUS, for He (God) will SAVE His people from their sins. God (YHWH) stated over and over again that "There is no Savior besides Me." (Hosea 13:4, Isa 43:11 and Isa 45:21). Is God a liar? Absolutely not.
Regarding creation - how many "persons" created all things? Let's look at Isa 44:24 KJV "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself..." Hmmm?
Did Jesus not know the Day of His coming? Why is Mat 24:36 written differently than Mark 13:32? Matthew was certainly one of Jesus' disciples; however, there was no disciple named Mark in the 12 disciples of Jesus: Simon-Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot. Jesus spoke to His disciples with clues, and we (as non-Jews) have misunderstood "No man knows the day nor the hour" ever since we read or heard His words to His disciples. Look up the Feast of Trumpets aka Rosh Hashana aka "The Day and Hour No Man Knows" and see if that doesn't shine some Light for you. Surely, it is written in 1 Thes 5:4 KJV "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."
If this at all sparks an interest to learn more and receive more of the Truth (for overcoming brain-washed indoctrination, by no fault of our own, is most difficult without the help of the Holy Spirit), please continue to read my hubs -- there's SO MUCH GOOD STUFF. God bless you as well, Harold.
Harold Clay on June 07, 2016:
I enjoy reading your hubs but I believe this article https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Was-Jesus...
makes more sense. Jesus is one with the Father not God himself. You can quote as many scriptures as you'd like, but none of them say, Jesus is God. However over and over and over again it states Jesus is the Son of God. Calls Jesus a man, created light and many names. Doesn't God have one name? Why doesn't Jesus know when God, chooses the day of his coming? Anyway, I'm not trying to discount your understanding of the bible but i just disagree on this one. But no doubt I believe you have a deep love for God. Be blessed
websub01 on April 14, 2014:
A question I have for all the trinity believers. I haven't found one to answer this question.. The trinity states that the father , the son and the holy spirit are all co-equal right, they are only different in function. either way please answer this. Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Since Jesus said out of his own mouth he has all power, where does that leave the father and the holy spirit if indeed they are distinct in person?
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on April 11, 2014:
Hi websub01! So nice to hear from you! Keep in mind that there is no capitalization in the original languages of Hebrew/Greek, but the translators inserted capitalization to influence the reader's interpretation to that of the translators. I have written on this very question, which I also had after receiving the revelation that the Trinity is false. I pray you are blessed - here is the link to my hub on this very subject: https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/...
God bless you!
websub01 on April 10, 2014:
It's been a long time since we've chatted. I have a verse that I'm struggling to understand. I know our Lord isn't a trinity of persons, you opened my eyes to that awhile ago. Can you help me with 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. I'm debating against a trinitarian. To me what that is saying is that God will no longer need to be mediator, meaning he will no longer rule as the God-man, but it will be like it was before the fall of man. Help me articulate that better. Thanks!
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”[a] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 21, 2014:
Hello, Courtney - I'll keep my response short and to-the-point. The Scriptures that are true will not contradict, and in that - they ARE infallible. Thus, when we look at Mat 28:19, for instance, there is absolutely no second witness all throughout the Bible. There must be two witnesses to establish a truth. This is both in the Torah and the New Testament. http://biblez.com/search.php?q=two+witnesses
Furthermore, every Apostle that baptized did it in the name of the LORD Jesus! Let's count those witnesses: Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 1:13-15 (at least eight!)
Secondly, you said in 1 John 5:8 the word ONE is a collective noun and not an adjective, for "if the word one is an adjective then that makes all of the scriptures that clearly state there are three a contradiction." I suggest you look up the Greek of 1 John 5:8 and note that One "hen" (which is the neuter of the masculine, singular 'heis') is indeed an adjective, which is Accusative, Neuter, SINGULAR (Adj-ANS): http://biblehub.com/text/1_john/5-8.htm
Jesus would not have given such a stern warning about adding to and taking away from His Word, if it were NOT POSSIBLE to do, and furthermore, would never be accomplished. We have admissions by the Catholic Church to changing the baptismal formula, which they would not have needed to 'change', IF indeed Jesus gave such a command already. Likewise, the Johannine Comma was NOT in any Greek text prior to the late 15th century. The Books of the Bible were written by the Apostles and disciples of Christ, who were all dead in the first century. It is well know, the Trinitarian wording was ADDED by the Codex 61, created by the Catholic Church.
I know we'd all like to think there's no error in the translations of the Bible, but if you know the Author, you know where the 'tares' are, for indeed they DO contradict the infallible Truth of the True Scriptures and they have NO second witness throughout.
I pray you will consider these things, if you love the Truth. God bless.
Courtney Stovall on February 20, 2014:
here is what God reveal to me:
- his word is the complete word and it is infallible. it does not lie, return
Void, or contradict itself.
- if you come across a scripture that contradicts the other scriptures 1 of 2 things is taking place: either you're wrong, or the Bible is wrong. And since the Bible is not wrong and cannot be wrong it means that you're interpreting something incorrectly.
with that being said I asked God to reveal to me how can there be one and also be 3? he revealed it to me simply and concisely and now I know that those scriptures do not contradict each other.
Here it is; its pretty simple...
there are several scriptures in the Bible that reveal that Jesus God and the Holy Ghost are separate. there are also scriptures that states clearly that they are one.
the reason there is so much controversy is because people think in that scripture "one" is an adjective! if the word one is an adjective then that makes all of the scriptures that clearly state there are three a contradiction. if one is an adjective, you must then throw out all the other scriptures that clearly revealed the Son the Holy Ghost and the father. but if you believe the Word of God is in the door it 80 for the gods and is correct, you cannot pick and choose which scriptures you want to keep and which ones you want to throw out.
the word one in the scriptures that tie God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Ghost together as one. 1 is a noun, more specifically a collective noun! a collective noun is a noun that is comprised of multiple equal parts. you cannot take anything away from it otherwise is not complete. for example, JURY, PRIDE, MURDER, CONGRESS. Jury is a group of 12, a pride as a group of lions, a murder is a group of crows, Congress is composed of two houses. if you take away the Senate you don't have Congress if you take away the House of Representatives you don't have Congress. you need both parts to make the ONE. you need a group of lions or pack of lions to make a pride. each Lion in that pride is 100% Lion they are not a percentage of lion. Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost are all 100% God, they are not 33.33 percent each. they are individually God and collectively they are ONE. 1 Lord, 1 authority, 1 Godhead. they are made of three members, 3 equal members. they are always in one accord so you will not get a different answer from one, that you would get from the other. they are always in agreement. as an adjective, the word 1 contradicts several scriptures. But as a collective noun it supports the Scriptures. Jesus told us to pray to his father, remember he prayed to his father he didn't pray to himself not once not ever in the Bible did he do that. when Jesus himself was baptized God spoke from heaven that represent the Father Jesus was in the water that represented the Son and the Holy Ghost to send it down in the form of a dove. a clear and concise showing the three in heaven. jesus said he was going to sit on the right hand of the Father not in the fathers lap. Jesus stated that the left hand of the Father was not his to give. the right, the left, the center, again show us 3! and collectively, these three are one.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on January 23, 2014:
Hi Yaakob! Yes, I address this specifically in my comment above to Rick aka websubo1. The Spirit of God is omnipresent, and just as when YHWH appeared to Abraham in Gen 18:22 as an immortal man, His Spirit was yet omnipresent. The Spirit in the form of a dove at Jesus' (YHWH in mortal flesh) baptism was just that - and was a specific sign given for John the Baptist. The voice from the heavens, as Jesus addressed in John 12, was not for His sake, but for the peoples' sakes. This was not to confuse people into thinking there were three gods or three 'persons' in a tri-unified Godhead. God bless you, brother.
Yaakob on January 23, 2014:
Matthew 3:16-17 only exlpains about Jesus , nor can it be used to relate to FAther and Holy spirit
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 05, 2013:
And PattyJane, I felt led to also invite you to read the documented confessions of faith in Who Jesus Christ IS over the centuries (non-Roman Catholics), starting with 37 AD - and thus, to see WHY John Calvin and the Roman Catholic Inquisitors martyred Michael Servetus in 1553 - keep in mind the KJ Bible we have today (admittedly altered by the RCC in Mat 28:19 and 1 John 5:7) was not published for the public until 1611: https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/CALVIN-Mu...
Be blessed in His Name, Amen.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 05, 2013:
Hi PattyJane, I am encouraged that you are open to the things of the Spirit and not given completely to the indoctrination of men, namely the Mother of Prostitutes (the RCC and Her so-called 'Reformed' off-shoots). You remain a seeker and let us go back to John 14:21-22 "He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him. Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show Yourself to us and not to the world?” Likewise, Jesus spoke in Parables, as prophesied in Psalm 78:2-4 and Isaiah 6:9-10. He was asked WHY He did so in Mat 13:10, to which Jesus answered in vs. 11 "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."
Throughout the incarnation Scriptures, we must remember that Jesus, the Almighty God (Spirit) became the Son of Man/Son of God, so He was flesh and blood (mortal, able to be killed) and just like we, subject to earthly and heavenly elements. As the last Adam (1 Cor 15:45), Jesus prayed to the Father (Spirit); as the last Adam, flesh and blood could not reveal who He was, for it is the Spirit who reveals. This is confirmed when He said, "Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you." As the last Adam, He (as Steven did) committed His spirit to the Father (Spirit) - and it's interesting to note that Steven committed his spirit to the Lord Jesus (Acts 7:58-59), for Jesus is the Father (John 14). In John 14:6 we see that as the Mediator, the Man Jesus Christ (1 Tim 2:5), He (the Lamb - John 1:29) is Way to the Father (the Shepherd - Ps 23:1; John 10:11). Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." In verse 7 we also see Jesus declare that He is the Father: "If you really know Me, you will know My Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and have SEEN Him.” Of course, they ask to be shown the Father and Jesus says, "If you have SEEN Me, you have SEEN the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father?'" (vs. 9) Will we ask Jesus the same thing when we enter heaven? Will He not answer in the same way?
As the last Adam, Jesus prayed on our behalf, for we didn't yet have His indwelling Holy Spirit to pray on our behalf (Rom 8:26). That indwelling Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God who is the Spirit of Christ (Rom 8:9). It's interesting to note what Jesus prophesied to His disciples, while yet in the flesh (John 16:26) "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf,"
I asked the Holy Spirit, who is our Teacher, Jesus Christ tons and tons of questions. He 'opened my mind to understand the Scriptures' as He did for His disciples in Luke 24:45 and I have faith He will do the same for you. I have written of my questions and answers in many of my hubs - to address the most common, I gave you the link to one of them above, "Should You Believe in the Trinity? 1 of 2" which covers:
The First Commandment
The Root of Protestant Churches = Catholicism
Alterations to the Holy Bible
The Trinity added to the Textus Receptus
Interpreting “Us”, “Our” and “We” Passages
The Person of God
The 'Trinty' at the Baptism of Jesus (I shared this portion above)
Not My will, but Thy will be done
and here is the second one, if you would like to read and ponder these things:
Why is Elohim plural?
The Word was with God
Stephen saw God and the Son at His right hand (including 1 Cor 11:3 "The Head of Christ is God")
Delivering up the Kingdom and Subjection of the Son
My Father is Greater than I
Why do you call Me good?
The Son doesn’t know the Day nor the Hour
Jesus calls the Father ‘My God’
Jesus and the Holy Spirit make Intercession for us
God and the Lamb in Revelation
The Holy Spirit and Jesus come out from the Father
If anything I've learned and written about is of edification to you, I praise the LORD with all my heart. God bless you as you press into the kingdom, sister.
PattyJane on July 04, 2013:
You make some very good points, however logically it just doesn't seem to line up for me the way your and the oneness doctrine points. There are several questions that would cause me to question this doctrine. Why would Jesus pray to the Father, why did Jesus tell Peter that the Father revealed to him that He, Jesus, was the Messiah instead of saying I, Jesus, revealed it to you. Why did Jesus say to the Father that He commended His Soul into the Father's hands. Why would He sit hand of the Father, why would Jesus be making intercession to the Father for us, as well as many more questions I would have to investigate.
I will continue to study and pore over the Scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to teach me. I thank you for your time and patience with me.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 04, 2013:
Hi PattyJane, I asked God the same question ---- In my hub "Should You Believe in the Trinity? 1 of 2" I address this as follows:
The Baptism (Mikveh) of Jesus
Maybe you think God showed up as a multiple in the New Testament baptism of Jesus in Matthew 3. First, we have Jesus, "the Word made flesh" (John 1:14), standing in the water. Next, we see "the Spirit of God descending as a dove", while a voice from the heavens says, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Why did the Spirit of God manifest as a dove in the first place? This was the sign promised to John the Baptist in John 1:32-33: "John testified saying, 'I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.".
If we read Mat 3:15-16, some think it was Jesus who saw the Holy Spirit descending because the word 'him' is assumed as such. However, to align John 1 to Mat 3, we should read, "But Jesus answering said to him [John], 'Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.' Then he [John] permitted Him. After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he [John] saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him".
When it comes to the voice from the heavens, we should take time to compare what happened in John 12:27-30, when Jesus was prophesying about His death. He said, "Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 'Father, glorify Your name.' Then a voice came out of heaven: 'I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.' So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, 'An angel has spoken to Him.' Jesus answered and said, 'This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes."
I bolded the words of Jesus in John 12:27 "what shall I say, ‘Father, save Me from this hour’?" because this contradicts what is written about His prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane. Did Jesus say, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will"? (Mat 26:39) In that passage we are told Jesus was ALONE when He prayed, going into the Garden three times and returning three times to find His disciples sleeping! Furthermore, Jesus said in John 10:18, "No one has taken it [My life] away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again."
We must shed the indoctrinated idea that 'three Persons' of God were present at the baptism of Jesus. If the manifestation of a dove is to be counted as another 'person' of God, then we must also consider the other six manifestations of God throughout history: immortal flesh to Abraham and Jacob (Gen 18:2; 19:1; Gen 32:24, 28, 30); the Angel of the LORD (Ex 3:2; Josh 5:13; 6:2; Jud 6:11, 14), the Rock at Horeb (Ex 17:6. 1 Cor 10:4), clouds and fire (Num 14:14) and the human body of the Son. Post-ascension, in what 'form' did Jesus appear to Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus? Invisible, speaking Light (Acts 9).
1 Tim 3:16 is just as important as John 3:16, when it comes to the TRUTH:
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." Since the word "God" is not in the original Greek, we must look at the previous verse to confirm it indeed was God manifest in the flesh: "but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth."
PattyJane on July 03, 2013:
I'm curious as how you missed Matthew 3:16-17 in your study to disprove Trinity? Matthew 3:16-17 in the NAS that "After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."". These verses show separate personhood with the three separate persons, Jesus being baptized, the Holy Spirit descending, and the voice of the Father. How would you exegete these verses with your doctrine? You do a good job attempting to disprove Trinity but it wasn't enough to convince me, as the Holy Spirit would have to reveal it to me not to believe in the Triune Godhead.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 15, 2013:
You mean you've changed from Paul to Saul and whatever other handle fits your fancy, DT.
newenglandsun on February 15, 2013:
I'm no longer a theist any more, remember? And I plan to go by no other names other than newenglandsun. It's funny how you read guys like Paul but forget that he was once Saul. Maybe I have changed.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 15, 2013:
Well, obviously you're still trolling, Daniel Roberts aka DT, DHB, Ariel, Arletta, Daniel R, Raindrop, Rainbow and newenglandsun. You've put on all kinds of different personalities and made contradictory statements, even to your own Arian theology, just to spark a debate to get attention. However, I will answer you, especially if there might be others who have some of the same notions. So, though you attempt to wear me down, may God receive the glory in all things.
newenglandsun on February 15, 2013:
Really, Judah's Daughter? You think I'm "Surferdude"? You've gone overboard. I would never defend the notion that the Johannine Comma is real. Bart Ehrman debunks it in one of his books. I think it is either Misquoting Jesus or The Orthodox Corruption of Scriptures.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 14, 2013:
Hello, DT. I'm surprised you posted anything that would call your theology of Arianism 'heresy'...
By the way, who are the 'Latin Church Fathers'? You can quote all the Latin and Spanish men you want, even Priscillian and Idacius Clarus. Is any reference prior to the year 200? The whole idea of the ‘Trinity’ was coined by Tertullian in 200 AD, just after his conversion to Catholicism. You will not find anything in existence before that regarding the altered wording of 1 John 5:7. Let’s see – when did John die? Certainly more than a century before. He certainly didn’t write it, for this alteration was not in ANY Greek manuscripts even up to 1522, when Erasmus completed his third edition of the Greek New Testament. He gave into the pressure by the Catholic heirarchy by his fourth edition and even then, only included the alteration in a footnote. Stephanus then made four more revisions of Erasmus’ work in 1546, 1549, 1550 and 1551, and Theodore Beza edited it nine more times between 1565 and 1604. Now, just before the KJV was translated, the RCC had a Greek text created called The Codex Montefortianus, so no one could argue the Johannine Comma was not included an any Greek text. And I wonder who wrote the Codex Montefortianus? The Apostles?
Surferdude on February 13, 2013:
Ah your incorrect,
actually the Johannine Comma (reference to 1 John 5:7-8) also appears in manuscripts from the twelfth century, the fourteenth century and the sixteenth century.
“The oldest known citation of the Comma is in a fourth-century Latin treatise entitled Liber apologeticus.”
“The first undisputed citations of the Johannine comma occur in the writing of two 4th-century Spanish bishops… In the 5th century the Johannine comma was quoted by several orthodox African writers to defend the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals, who…. were fanatically attached to the Arian heresy.”
“Evidence for the early existence of the Johannine comma is found in the Latin versions and in the writings of the Latin Church Fathers.”
Among these is Cyprian (c. 250) and Cassiodorus (480–570), as well as an Old Latin manuscript of the 5th or 6th century, and in the Speculum, a treatise which contains an Old Latin text. It is also found in the great mass of the later Vulgate manuscripts and in the Clementine edition of the Vulgate.
You may go and research this further if you want:
The Spanish bishops are Priscillian and Idacius Clarus [Edward F. Hills, The King James Version Defended (Des Moines, Iowa, USA: The Christian Research Press, 1984), pp. 209–10]
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on December 01, 2012:
gsteers ~ beautiful! You know, I came upon a discovery just recently regarding Isa 9:6, in that the Hebrew appears not to contain the word 'Father': http://studybible.info/IHOT/Isaiah%209:6 Yet, it still tells us who this child that would be born to us IS: Wonderful Counselor (Spirit), God the Mighty (Father), the Prince of Peace (Yahushua). He is not three persons, but ONE. He IS the great "I AM".
And Rom 8:8-11 verifies this to be Truth. The Spirit is God and His Spirit is the Spirit of Christ and Yahushua said that in three days, He would raise Himself from the dead, and I believe what He said (John 2:19). Therefore, when we read "God raised Him" (Acts 2:24) and "the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead" (Rom 8:11), the Spirit is God (John 4:24; 2 Cor 3:17) and Yahushua raised His own body from the dead (John 2:19).
So now, I still believe that God is invisible and His visible image is Yahushua. It has been this way since eternity past and will be for eternity future, for He is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End (Rev 22:13). Amen ~ good Word!!
gsteers on November 30, 2012:
Great hub! Here are two verses that have convinced me (sorry if they have been mentioned and I missed them):
Isaiah 9:6, "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
I hear Jesus being referred to as Counselor (Holy Spirit) and Everlasting Father all as one coherent thought...no separation.
Then this is my favorite:
Romans 8:9-11, "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you."
Look at all the descriptions of who's inside of you! Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, Christ, Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead. Paul's just using different terms to say the same thing. God is in you!
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on November 24, 2012:
Wow - that's awesome, brother websubo1. (Oh - in paragraph 5 above, I meant to type John 1:1, not John 1:2).
See, I didn't have a Oneness brother or sister, let alone a pastor, to ask questions of, for I thought I was completely alone and had no idea who to ask questions of...I could only ask God who gave me the understanding that He is ONE in the first place - thus, I struggled to 'test' Him by asking and asking, receiving, receiving, testing some more, studying. It was exhausting, but I could not stop until I had a grasp that was secure. Oh me of little faith! I could relate to Jacob wrestling with God in Gen 32.
Since I discovered this 'theology' is called 'Oneness', I also noticed they didn't answer some of the questions (as with John 1:1) in the same way, for even they did not find the treasure in the word 'pros' (to, toward, face-to-face); however, our saved Jewish brethren did. I asked them to review what God had revealed to me about John 1:1 and that of Gen 1:26 "Let Us make man in our image" before I posted the hub - they not only blessed it, they have the link to my hub "Let Me Tell You Who God Is" posted in their resources on their website. HalleluYah, the LORD confirms and blesses His teaching.
And I LOVE their Statement of Faith, amen: http://www.ahavatyeshua.com/StatementOfFaith.asp
So God led me this morning to look up 'face-to-face' in the Bible - oh, what revelation!
Gen 32:30 "So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved."
Ex 33:11 "Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend."
Deut 5:4 "The LORD spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire."
Deut 34:10 "Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face."
Jud 6:22 "When Gideon saw that he was the angel of the LORD, he said, "Alas, O Lord GOD! For now I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face."
Eze 20:35 "and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face."
1 Cor 13:12 "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."
2 Cor 4:6 "For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."
The LORD continues to confirm His Truth ~ that is what is so beautiful. I praise God He is your LORD and Savior and you are His son, my brother. God bless you!!
websub01 on November 23, 2012:
Thanks so much for that revelation, over the years I've often debated with oneness Pentecostals over the subject matter and no one has been able to answer those tough questions, they would just avoid them by asking questions. You are the 1st to explain in such a way that I now understand. And I will read the other hubs you referenced to. God bless you sister..
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on November 23, 2012:
Hi websubo1, Praise God you don't believe in the eternal sonship of Jesus. As you know, spiritual understanding is limited by our finite minds and even language. It comes by spiritual discernment, given as a gift of the Spirit. So, I shall use mere words, as limited as they are, to answer as God has answered me. I could write a book on the overflowing learning, yet I have written many hubs to break it down - I am still learning daily.
Proverbs 8 is speaking of wisdom, an attribute of the Holy Spirit. You may enjoy my hub "The Seven Spirits of God - the Flame of the Menorah", which may give more insight to the Son of Man/Son of God becoming the 'wisdom' of God.
1 Cor 15:45 Aramaic translation: "Thus also it is written: “Adam the first man was a living soul; the last Adam - The Life Giver Spirit."
To answer John 1:1-2, the word translated 'with' is the Greek word 'pros', meaning 'to'. Elohim, if you look it up in the Bible dictionary or concordance (H430) includes angels, magistrates, and sons of the Most High (believers), as noted in Ps 82:6 and John 10:34. The LORD (YHWH) Elohim is the LORD of Elohim and is Elohim. You can find an in depth study of this in my hug "God: Let Us Make Man in Our Image?" (link is within this hub)
John 1:2 tells us, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God." vs. 14 tells us "the Word became flesh", so we can take Acts 20:28 and align it: "God was manifest in the flesh".
I'm not sure how pillars to Moses and Elijah supports God in three Persons? In fact, recently it was given to me understanding of what Moses and Elijah represented in that transfiguration vision: Moses (Law), Elijah (Prophets) and Christ (fulfillment of both).
I addressed the voice from the heavens in the previous comment. Here we see the fulfillment of "the LORD said unto my Lord", etc.
If you read Mat 17:1-8 you are speaking of the very same incident, the mount of transfiguration, when the disciples fell face down in fear.
Rev 2:18 - cross-reference with Rev 1:9-20. One 'like the son of man' is yet the visible image of the invisible God. The first three chapters of Revelation are written to the seven churches by the LORD, their Rock and Cornerstone, as their High Priest. This gives us understanding of John 20:17 as well. Remember the word 'pros' in John 1:1? It is also used in John 20:17, so we can see the prophetic meaning again in John 1:1. Not only that, but the Word who was and is God that became flesh was 'to' us, the sons of the Most High (Elohim).
Yet, Jesus makes it clear who He is in Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:" - when we compare this to Isaiah 44:6 there is no doubt: "Thus says the LORD (YHWH), the King of Israel and his [Israel's] Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is NO God besides Me."
Revelation records what was, is and is to come. Again, God is the Spirit (John 4:24; 2 Cor 3:17) and His image is the one 'like the son of man', aka 'the Lamb'. Rev 5:5 "Then one of the elders said to me, 'Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” This is speaking of the humanity of God in the person of Yahushua. Some scholars say the first seal was opened upon the death and resurrection of Yahushua.
Wikipedia "In the historicist views of Nicholas de Lyra (14th Cent.), Robert Fleming (17th Cent.), Charles Daubuz (c. 1720), Thomas Scott (18th Century), and Cunninghame, they agreed that the First Seal opened thereupon the death of Christ."
Even if we look at the vision Steven had in Acts 7:55 "But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the GLORY of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God" we have greater understanding. There is only one Throne in heaven, and the term "God and the Lamb" is equivalent to "God and Savior" all throughout the Bible (He is the same God).
Rev 21:7 clearly shows us what Jesus says, " I will be their God and they will be my children."
Luke 22:42-44 are speaking of Jesus as the Son of Man, for Phil 2:8 tells us, "Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." The last Adam, the firstborn of the new creation, set the example for all of us in EVERYTHING. That's why He is the WAY. I also wonder within my own mind, that if Jesus prayed in the garden alone, who is to say what He prayed? There were no witnesses, as His disciples were sleeping.
The disciples preached about God manifest in the flesh as the Son of God and obviously, as God Almighty. I will give you two witnesses, that being Peter and Titus:
2 Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
Titus 2:13 "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."
For a history of witnesses, I invite you to read my hub "CALVIN Murdered Michael Servetus": https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/CALVIN-Mu...
You may also be blessed to read another of my latest hubs, which addresses the question "God or the Son of God?" https://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/h
websub01 on November 23, 2012:
Thank you for that insight. I don't believe in the eternal sonship of Jesus. There are other verses that are in question if you take a look at proverbs 8, It's speaking of wisdom. And cross reference it with 1 corinthians 1:30..
Proverbs 8:22-31}“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
1 Corinthians 1:30 niv}It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Then cross reference with John 1:1-2}In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
And John 1:14} The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Also in Matthew 17 when Jesus transfigured. Matthew 17:4-8} Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.
Now the question is why didn't the disciples fall down in fear when Jesus transfigured? I mean that should've been an amazing sight to see, but they only fell down in fear when the voice came from the cloud that covered them.
Also Revelation 2:18}To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:
These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. In this verse Jesus refers to himself as the Son of God.
Revelation 2:26-27} To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father. As we can see here Jesus is still making references to the Father.
Revelation 3:1-2 & verses 11-13} “To the angel[a] of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God.
I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Revelation 3:21 }To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.
As we can see Jesus is still calling God his God
Revelation 4:2-3 & verse 11} At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”
Revelation chapter 5} Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Now that chapter is very clear that John saw two. The one on the throne & the lamb (Jesus) that took the scroll from the one on the throne's hand.
Revelation 21:6-7} He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
Know lets back track to John 20:17} Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Luke 22:42-44} “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
Above we see there is some resistance. Jesus knew that he came into the world to die for us and that he would suffer a horrible death, so why would he pray to the father for it to happen another way if there was another way possible?
Also my final question. Who did the disciples preach about? Did they preach about God or the Son of God?
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on November 22, 2012:
Hi Rick aka websubo1,
Looking at your opening statement: “I believe the One God is Father, Son, & Holy spirit” and, if we look at your closing statement, “Jesus is God, he is the King of kings and the Lord of Lords, he is the Alpha & the Omega, the Beginning and the ending, which is, which was, and which is to come, the Almighty”, summing it up to say, “I don't believe in 3 Gods, I believe in One God”, you know who He is, not who ‘they are’.
Regarding Mat 3:16 “After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he [John] saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him”, the cross-reference is John 1:32-33 “And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon Him.’ And I knew Him not: but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.” This is not a passage that should split God into three ‘persons’, but rather show that God existed in both invisible Spirit and visible flesh at the same time; the Spirit ‘like a dove’ was a sign to John. And regarding the voice from heaven, we can reference John 12:30 when “Jesus answered and said, ‘This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.’”
Even through the rest of the passages you quoted, God is acknowledged as both Father (Spirit) and ‘Lord Jesus Christ’ (flesh). To give Jesus, as the Son of Man, the last Adam, “The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD” is as He does to us today, when we have faith in the Son of Man/Son of God as the last Adam, the firstborn of the new creation (all born-again believers). While God in the flesh was the only begotten (born) Son, we are adopted sons and daughters when we are born again.
God is The Spirit, the Holy Spirit (the Father) who conceived God with us, Emmanuel whose name is Jesus (Yehushua, YHWH saves). If we look at Acts 4:12 “And there is salvation in NO ONE ELSE; for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved” with Hosea 13:4 “Yet I have been the LORD your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know ANY god except Me, For THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME”, we can see this clearly. God is NOT Three Persons, each not the other. The Trinity doctrine is false.
You quoted John 17:5 and no doubt you interpret this in error, as does most of the indoctrinated Christian world (of which I was one of them). When Jesus said, “now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world began”, we MUST go up to verse 1 of this chapter: “Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, ‘Father, THE HOUR HAS COME; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You.” So, as you can see vs. 5 was prophetic, and does not mean the Son existed as the Son before the world began. The doctrine of the ‘eternal Son’ comes from the First Council of Constantinople (381 AD), which states “And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds.” Begotten means born, and no one can prove the Son was born of God before the womb of Mary.
We can look at another example of such a prophetic verse found in Rev 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” We know good and well the Lamb was not slain at the foundation of the world.
I at least hope you find this enlightening.
websub01 on November 22, 2012:
I believe in the Trinity of God, I believe the One God is Father, Son, & Holy spirit. Matthew 3:16-As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
Ephesians 1:2-2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:3-4-3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. Ephesians 1:17-17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
There are just too many scriptures throughout the bible that reveal the One God as a trinity. Yes I do understand that the word trinity isn't in the bible, but neither is the word bible, or oneness, or Omnipresent, or Omnipresence. But they are terms we use to try and explain the one and only almighty God. I don't base my belief in the trinity on just a few versus, I base it on the entire bible, especially what has been revealed in the new testiment.
Another verse to consider is John 17:5-And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 12:28-30-Father, glorify your name!" Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again."The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine.
I could go on and on and list a ton more versus.
Like I stated there are just too many versus that shows God revealing himself as a Trinity. I don't believe in 3 Gods, I believe in One God. Yes I am filled with the holy spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. I know who the Lord Jesus christ is, I talk to him him everyday. None of us can fully explain God in human terms. But the main point is Jesus is God, he is the King of kings and the Lord of Lords, he is the Alpha & the Omega, the Beginning and the ending, which is, which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 14, 2012:
Jim, I appreciate your response, especially "However, the adjective “allos” (other) does not express that idea. It is the context (the entirety of what is expressed in John 14:16-18) that implies that idea." This is why it takes the Holy Spirit to express the teaching within the written text, that we have spritual understanding, especially based on the context.
I disagree with your statement, "The adjective “allos” (other) distinguishes two different disciples in John 18:16, and it likewise distinguishes two different Comforters in John 14:16." When it comes to the Comforter, visible and invisible forms are 'allos', but are the same Comforter, not two Comforters. May God grant you spiritual understanding.
Again, I point out the various 'forms' Jesus appeared in: flesh and Spirit. Consider the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Christ is the same Spirit that omnipresently indwells every believer on earth (Rom 8:9). He is the same Spirit that gives all the various Spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12:8-10); we saw in Mark 16:12 that Jesus, post-resurrection, appeared in a different (eteros) form to two of His disciples, and they did not recognize Him until He broke the bread and vanished. Consider the form Jesus took when He appeared to Saul/Paul in Acts 9:3-4; 26:13-14...Light (invisible) and speaking. Amen.
Jim on July 14, 2012:
I understand what you’re saying.
In John 14:16-18, Jesus says, “… another Comforter he-will-give to-you … the Spirit of-the truth … Not I-will-abandon you [to-be] orphaned. I-come to you.”
Thus, when the other Comforter (the Spirit of the truth) comes to us, Jesus himself comes to us (in a different form), as Jesus himself implies in John 14:16-18.
However, the adjective “allos” (other) does not express that idea. It is the context (the entirety of what is expressed in John 14:16-18) that implies that idea.
In John 18:16, John says, “But Peter he-had-stood at the door outside. Therefore, he-came-out, the disciple, the other [o allos], the-one known of-the chief-priests.” Peter was not that other disciple.
The adjective “allos” (other) distinguishes two different disciples in John 18:16, and it likewise distinguishes two different Comforters in John 14:16.
The context in John 14:16-18 implies that the Spirit is Jesus in a different form. It doesn’t explicitly say it. It implies it.
However, the adjective “allos” (other) itself neither explicitly expresses nor implies any such idea.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 14, 2012:
You’re claiming that allos and eteron mean the ‘same’ thing, are you not? Your answer is two persons are meant by both, as in two disciples and a Pharisee and Publican.
Let me try to explain, using the examples of mine you restated in your comment. Would you agree that the word visible is distinct from the word in-visible? Yes. If a person is invisible and omnipresent and becomes visible and present are there two persons? Likewise, in Mark 16:12 when Jesus took on another form, did that make Jesus two persons? Since Jesus existed both in the form of God and the form of a bondservant in Phil 2:6-7 did that make Him two persons?
Rather, I state that Jesus was visible and present when He told His disciples ‘another’ (allos) Comforter would be sent to them in John 14:16. Jesus then tells them they already know Him because He lives (present tense) with them and will be (future tense) in them. In vs. 18 Jesus clearly stated, “I will not leave you as orphans [Fatherless], I will come to you.” Who? “I will come to you.” (invisible and omnipresent)
Jim on July 13, 2012:
We do need to address Jesus stating, "I will send you 'another' Comforter" (John 14:16), as some seem to think this means a 'different' entity. What is the Greek word used in this passage? It is 'allos', meaning 'more of the same'; while the Greek word for 'another' as in 'different' is G2087 'heteros'. Check out Mark 16:12 "After that [His resurrection] He appeared in another [heteros] form [morphe] unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country."
The adjective “allos” (other) distinguishes two or more persons or things and focuses on how they are alike. In John 14:16, there is the Comforter and the other Comforter. Both (the Comforter and the other Comforter) are Comforters, but there are two of them, not one. In John 18:16, there is Peter (a disciple) and the other disciple. Both (Peter and the other disciple) are disciples, but there are two of them, not one.
The adjective “eteros” (different) distinguishes two or more persons or things and focuses on how they are different. In Luke 18:10, the one man is a Pharisee, and the different man is a publican. In John 19:34, the one Scripture says this, and the different Scripture says that.
Which of these two adjectives the writer uses depends on whether the writer wants to focus on how the two persons or things are the same (allos) or whether he wants to focus on how the two persons or things are different (eteros).
However, both adjectives (allos, eteros) distinguish two or more persons or things, not one person or thing.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on August 16, 2011:
Lionswhelp, I suppose you see that I don't post your comments, but I have posted this one to address this issue with my readers. First of all, count how many times the Ruach HaKodesh (the Holy Spirit) is called "He" throughout the Bible. Now count how many times He is called a 'She'.
Can you give biblical proof that "The Father overshadowed both the Holy Spirit(who was resting on Mary) and Mary"? NO!! People need to understand the Hebrew language, as explained very well by Rabbi Ya'acov Farber: "the Hebrew language is unlike any other. The use of the feminine is not unusual even when referring to the masculine. The word may be feminine but that does not necessarily mean that what it is referring to is feminine. There are many such examples in Biblical Hebrew, Ruach HaKodesh is only one of them. You can not apply English concepts to Biblical Hebrew it doesn't work. Example the word Avot is feminine but it means fathers."
lionswhelp on August 13, 2011:
Well JD, pneuma - nueter would have been used by a dualistic gnostic. Jesus taught Moses in Genesis 1 that "Ruach" Ha Kadosh is a feminine Person because ruach is a feminine noun in the Hebrew.
This is the same reason Jesus taught Nicodemus in John 3:1-8 that we have to be born or conceived of the Spirit.
The Father begot Jesus, verse 16, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit Mother in Mary's womb. The Father overshadowed both the Holy Spirit(who was resting on Mary) and Mary. Not hard at ALL. not all Messianics believe the same way.
I agree that the insertion of 1 John 5:7 is controversial at that. But so is 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and inserted verse but just the same there are other Scriptures that show that the Holy Spirit is a person, John chapters 14,15, 16, Revelation 22:17, Genesis 1:2, Job 33:4, Isaiah 11:2. Have a nice Sabbath
Disappearinghead from Wales, UK on April 29, 2011:
Thanks for the info JD.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on April 28, 2011:
AMEN, AMEN!! Jesus' message showed how blinded the Jews were, yet those who call themselves 'Christians', knowing and accepting Jesus as the Messiah are just as blinded when it comes to idolatry. I recently listened to a Jewish rabbi who stated the Jews, having been enslaved in Egypt for 400 years, were very accustomed to their pagan gods and ways of worship. Now, when Christians attempt to share the gospel of Christ with them, they don't want to hear it because they see the same practices going on within the 'Chistian' churches!
At the last supper (Passover meal), which customarily happened on the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread (Luke 22:7) - Jewish days are evening to evening - the night before Jesus was crucified, He told His disciples that they are to continue to "do this in remembrance of Me". He expected they would continue to celebrate Passover, with the understanding that He indeed was the Passover Lamb of God.
As it was all those years ago, Passover was on a Tuesday (for 2011, it was Tuesday April 19th). And, for all these centuries, Christians have celebrated 'Good Friday' as the day of the Lord's death. Jesus said in Mat 12:40, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." We KNOW He rose on the first day of the week (Mat 28:1). This was actually during the evening of Saturday to Sunday early (again Jewish days). By the time Mary got to the tomb, it was already empty. Count back three nights and three days, and Jesus was actually crucified on a Wednesday!
We should be observing Passover. Here's a link to the Jewish calendar that will show us, every year, when Passover is: http://rabbiscott.com/jewish_feasts.html We should be eating lamb and unleavened bread with new wine, so we show the Lord's death until He comes again (1 Cor 11:26), not easter eggs, chocolate bunnies, ham and hot-cross buns. And why not eat unleavened bread for seven days? Four of the seven feasts have been fulfulled, but obviously, Jesus expected we would continue to celebrate Passover ~ so why not all of them?
God HATES idolatry, so it's no wonder so many churches claim the gifts of the Spirit have been done away with. I guess they can't understand, as you said, why they don't experience them...so THAT HAS to be the explanation? I really believe, if God could open MY eyes to 'see' this stuff, when I was engulfed in it from childhood (and it's only been in the last two years ~ I'm 46 years old), He will do it for all those who love Him. His desires become ours, not the other way around. We will grieve at what grieves Him and we will rejoice in what pleases Him. AMEN, AMEN!!
Disappearinghead from Wales, UK on April 28, 2011:
Yes it is a complete mystery to me why the Church does not celebrate Passover. Jesus is our sacrificial lamb who shed His blood so that God's judgment passes over us. In fact after 25 years in the Church, I very rarely ever heard it mentioned. Yet year after year the church would send the kids out into the grounds on an Easter Egg hunt, and then they expect God to bless the service with His presence??!!!
The Church wonders why God doesn't move in accordance with the Spiritual Gifts. Perhaps if the Church got its house in order and rejected the pagan systems you list above, He would then show Himself to the Church. There is a distinct parallel I think here between the Church and Israel flirting with pagan ideology, and also a corresponding parallel in how God responds.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on April 28, 2011:
Hi Disappearinghead! It's always so good to hear from you! I am like you, in that I cannot tolerate the teaching of the 'Trinity', as I believe in the core of my being that its concept is of pagan origin, birthed by the Catholic church's corruption of the Holy Word for their own agenda of encouraging pagans to join the 'church'...they instigated the following corruptions as well:
While they celebrate the immaculate conception on Dec 8th, knowing full well Jesus was born in September, they chose the pagan god birth-date of Dec 25th to celebrate the birth of Christ, calling it 'Christ MASS'. Trees, Santa...it's all pagan!
They knew pagans mourned the death of Tammuz for 40 days before the 'Queen of Heaven' (one of her names being Ishtar - Easter) was celebrated upon the spring equinox; thus they have practiced the same in the name of God: LENT and calling Mary the "Queen of Heaven". Who knows how the word 'Easter' got into the KJV and only once, when the word 'pascha' is used and translated 'Passover' in EVERY other New Testament passage? Easter eggs, bunnies and baskets...it's all pagan!
They took out the second of God's holy Commandments from their catechism (about idols and carved images and the bowing down to them) and split the nineth into two!
They inserted the proper name of 'Lucifer' (Latin) in the midst of the Hebrew text (Isa 14), thus birthing the doctrine of Lucifer.
I could go on, but the Protestant churches branched off the Catholic church and unfortunately, and ignorantly took the doctrine of the Trinity, Christmass, Easter and Lucifer with them. We even celebrate their 'saints' ignorantly, too! St. Valentine, St. Patrick, etc. etc. etc.
We need to COME OUT OF HER, for 'she' is worshiping God in the same way as the pagans do their gods, which God calls an abomination! I pray He will open the eyes of the blind, for Acts 17:30 tells us, "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent!"
God bless you!! Thank you and believe me, I can relate!!
Disappearinghead from Wales, UK on April 28, 2011:
Excellent hub JD.
I too was brought up with the trinity doctrine and it is regarded by the Church as a key pillar of belief in order to be a 'Christian'. An old friend regarded me with incredulity when I questioned its validity.
Do you attend church regularly? If so, how do you do it? Week after week being directly or indirectly preached to with regards to the doctrine; continually being told that the Holy Spirit is a separate person to God. Christians continuously asking the same stupid question "When I pray, should I pray to my Father, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?" Do you sit there with gritted teeth trying not to explode?
Whatever effort the Church puts in to try to explain its trinity, in practice, in its mindset, it does worship three separate gods, with its forgotten roots back to a sop to Constantine's paganism. It is for this and other reasons that I just cannot sign up to a Church membership.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 21, 2010:
Oh, the Comforter speaks to me through you, exorter! Thank you; thank God, our Lord Jesus Christ! I receive that blessing of confirmation in His Name!! Hallelujah to the Lamb! By His blood, we are given His Spirit within us and He truly wants us to be a vessel of His glory to all who will have the ears to hear and the eyes to see. Oh, I want to know Him more!! Ever heard that song? I think I'm going to listen to it now...God bless you!!!
exorter from virginia on July 21, 2010:
I'm not a writer, I'm not a speaker, But your hub tells me you have felt the power of our Lord, and that you understand the word better than a lot of Christians, I will be watching for your words.
Jesus,Our Father in Heaven,He told me so
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 20, 2010:
Yes, I love learning, brother PlanosLie! I've learned from your hubs; that's for sure! If you go click on "my profile" at the top of your screen, then "edit profile", you will see the options there to receive emails when people either publish or comment. It's really a great tool. Love you, brother! God will confirm His truth to us and what is false will fade ~ when we seek Him with all our hearts :-) God bless!
PlanosLie from Los Angeles on July 20, 2010:
JD thanks for teaching some things that I didn't know. I can't agree with all you say but nevertheless you are well researched. BTW, is there a way to get an email when someone responds to me on here? It's getting hard to keep up with these Hubs without notifications.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 20, 2010:
Praise God, Tammy!! He is the one and same LORD; Yes, He is the Father to us, He is the Son (the Father in the flesh, whose FLESH shed the precious, holy blood to meet His Own requirement) and He is the Almightly Holy Spirit that made us (Job 33:4), created all things, led Israel by clouds and fire, baptizes us in that fire, and indwells us because of His blood and the grace that comes by FAITH!! HE IS ALMIGHTY, AWESOME, WONDERFUL, OUR LORD, OUR SAVIOR, EL SHADDAI! Hallelujah!
Tammy Bruner on July 20, 2010:
How could we ever completely understand God? The one who made the universe, our very beings?
Judahs Daughter you do a great job of giving the facts and backing it with scripture.
One day we will all understand, even those that don't believe will know God: as the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 20, 2010:
Hi bayoulady, I certainly appreciate your kindness. It's true that many don't agree on much doctrinal issues, as there's many influences out there with preachers and teachers; we all just do our very best and God does the rest; amen? He will either confirm something as truth or confirm it as error, sometimes quickly and sometimes over time. Thank you for your graciousness. God bless you.
bayoulady from Northern Louisiana,USA on July 19, 2010:
That is why I am following you. I admire your commitment for writing as God speaks to you . In the future, I may not always agree. But this is a writing community , and I can always applaud your talent and passionate writing.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 19, 2010:
Thank you for your kindness, bayoulady! I must say, this hub is the summary of the labor of study the Lord took me through as He revealed and I tested...lol I didn't think my mind would 'get it' or survive it!! lol
I surely love all my brothers and sisters in Christ that have commented here. He puts us together to grow in love and unity ~ and He wishes to keep us in the knowledge of the truth. Iron sharpens iron, and in Him we are FRIENDS; praise God! God bless!!!
bayoulady from Northern Louisiana,USA on July 19, 2010:
I'm impressed with the amount of study and preparation you must have done to write such a passionate hub.Excellent! God bless!
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 19, 2010:
Praise God, brother no body. Over the centuries, I've just truly seen people separate the Father from the Son, even now ~ making Jesus out to be lesser than God, for they see Him as we view our children as our offspring, but not at our 'level'. I believe God wants to reveal Himself to His children who love Him and just need a little 'staff and rod' to make sure they know Who their Shepherd is!! Psalm 23 states who the Shepherd is ~ the LORD!! And Jesus said, "I AM the Good Shepherd" - hello?
PRAISE BE OUR LORD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST, THE LIVING GOD!!
Robert E Smith from Rochester, New York on July 19, 2010:
There is no way that the awesome God of the universe can be completely explained while we are in this sinful form. I believe it is very important to realize that God is ONE God, not three. Not three minds but one mind. Not three purposes, but one will that will not be denied. So many people who teach Scripture try to summarize God or leap to logical conclusions. We all do that but we should not all teach that. I am so glad that I have my family that watch my back when I write and make sure that I don't convey any personal leaps of logic but just say, "Thus sayeth the LORD." Awesome hub, my sister. Love you.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 18, 2010:
I appreciate your heart, Loves To Read :-) The "right hand of God" needs to be studied (if you look it up on biblos.com or the like you can type in 'right hand' and read all the scriptures). I did this and published the results in my hub, "Let Me Tell You WHO GOD IS!". Truly, it is symbolic of the power of God, which is also attributed to the Spirit of God because He is One LORD.
As far as "another Comforter", keep in mind Jesus was still in the fleshly body He died and rose in. He had to return to the Spirit, and would come in that manifestation to baptize us (this is the baptism of Jesus, the baptism of fire that happened on the Day of Pentecost) and teach us by His Spirit from that day forward. Remember, He said, "I will not leave you as orphans (Fatherless)"; "I will come to you". He certainly was not talking about His coming to rapture the Church! The Lord has never abandoned us, nor will He. This is why I believe He breathed the Spirit upon the disciples that day, to keep them until the Day of Pentecost.
I'm glad you are one who reviews and lets the Holy Spirit teach, for there is no other way to walk in truth. Jesus said, "I AM [God] the Way, the Truth [Spirit of Truth] and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me" because without Him we don't have the Father, for He is the Father.
Now, Muslims believe in one God, but he is not a father, for he has no son. We have one LORD, Who manifested Himself by Spirit, then by flesh, and again by Spirit until He comes, when we will who believe will remain as eternal members of elohim (the family of God - in Him and He in us). Praise God! Blessings to you!
Loves To Read on July 18, 2010:
Thumbs up!!! JD. Great hub as always. I must confess that i need to read and re-read some things as they seem to go right over my head. I was brought up with the Holy Trinity but with the full knowledge that Jesus was in fact God in the Flesh. Born of a woman who was impregnated by the Spirit of God. When Jesus was Crucified He was returned to the throne. I think for some this is where they get confused as Jesus was to take His place at the right hand of God, And that He (Jesus ) would send a comforter. Thus a trinity of God is born.
Thank you for sharing the information that you study in depth, so that you can enlighten others with your knowledge.
May you be richly blessed for your obedience. Hugs.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 18, 2010:
PlanosLie, sounds interesting to me ~ perhaps you can write a hub about this? "Varimadum" is a Latin word (clue), and here's more that I found regarding The Comma Johannaeum (also Latin): http://www.godglorified.com/1_john_57.htm
I understand Priscillian was a Spaniard ~ I looked him up and found on Wikepedia the following: "Priscillianism is a Christian doctrine developed in the Iberian Peninsula (the Roman Hispania) in the 4th century by Priscillian, derived from the Gnostic-Manichaean doctrines taught by Marcus, an Egyptian from Memphis, and later considered a heresy by the Orthodox Church...According to Raymond Brown's Epistle of John, the source of the Comma Johanneum, appears to be the Latin book Liber Apologeticus by Priscillian."
Interestingly enough, the KJV didn't come about until the 16th Century.
Regardless of "argument" in respect to 1 John 5:7-8, I addressed this passage as included, for I'm not going to discard any of the written Word as we have it today. Polycarp, Ignatius etc. are not mentioned in the Bible, so whatever they believed is what they believed. The point is, that if indeed text was added to the original manuscript, could it have been a catalyst for doctrinal error regarding the One Lord? It appears these passages are used by those who believe in three in oneness, rather than One, in two manifestations (Spirit and flesh).
In light of the definition of 'Modalist', I suppose that's what I'm labeled?
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 18, 2010:
Awe, I see, sister Joni :-) Yes, this probably challenges the subtle, indoctrinated traditions of the 'Trinity' for quite a few, and may be hard to understand or cause offense; which, I felt may be so...thus, the way I opened this hub. It is certainly not my intent; rather, to lift up our Holy Lord God, Jesus Christ, Who reigns forever and ever; amen!! Thank you, and God bless you!!
PlanosLie from Los Angeles on July 18, 2010:
There indeed is record of the Johannine Comma being referenced way before the Textus Receptus was around. Consider a couple of quotes:
(1) The Varimadum (380 A.D.) says: "And John the Evangelist says, . . . 'And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one'."
(2) Priscillian (385 A.D.) says:
"and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh, the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus."
There are early surviving Latin manuscripts that have the Comma (and others) as well :-) My exegesis of the theotes (Godhead) doesn't hinge on one verse though. I take it you're a Modalist? What's your take of disciples (Polycarp, Ignatius etc) of THE DISCIPLES being Trinitarians? Take care now!
Joni Douglas on July 18, 2010:
Hi JD. Sorry, I just meant the clouds of discontent, whether they be from others who disagree or those who may wish to argue with you. I support all of your teachings, I may look at them from a different angle but the teaching is the same.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 18, 2010:
Hi DiamondRN ~ Yes, in the beginning was the Word and the Word became flesh; His name is Jesus, the name above ALL names ~ His name in Hebrew is Yehowshua, meaning YHWH Saves. God is our Savior and Jesus is God. Hallelujah!
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 18, 2010:
Hi Joni, I'm not sure what you mean by "I can see the clouds forming"? I guess the question I would pose to you is this: Do you believe Jesus is the Father in the flesh and that the Holy Spirit is God the Father (Who is spirit), and is thus the Spirit of Christ/Spirit of God in us? As you can see, the Father (LORD God) made man, yet the Spirit of God made man ~ and if Jesus is the Father (before coming in the flesh ~ in the flesh, the Son of God, and after is the Father in Spirit), He created us and all things as John 1:3 states?
Jesus is YHWH, and this is the confession of faith shown in Romans 10:9. Truly, all in Him are elohim, His family.
Thank you for reading both hubs and God bless you.
Bob Diamond RPh from Charlotte, NC USA on July 18, 2010:
John 1:1 and 1 John 5:13 are the ones that do it for me, JD. They are short and straight to the point.
Joni Douglas on July 18, 2010:
JD, thank you for sharing this. I also read einron's hub. I can see the clouds forming. The way God showed me to look at it quite simple. We all understand family dynamics.
God is the Father, not just the Father of Jesus, but of us all. Jesus is the firstborn son and our older brother, and the Holy Spirit is the power, connection and tool used by the family. Where does worship come in? Jesus said it best....Worship the Father, the One who sent me.
Great hub JD. You do make your point.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 17, 2010:
I rejoice that you rejoice, einron! Your hub is awesome! I hope all who read this one will read yours, too! I have placed your link at the base of this hub!! At first I didn't understand what you meant by two: The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ, but now I paid attention to "two MANIFESTATIONS" (in Spirit and in flesh), but nonetheless, the same, single, ONE LORD GOD. AMEN!!!
einron from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA on July 17, 2010:
I am extremely glad that GOd had revealed Himself as only ONE GOD. Hallelujah! Only God can convince you, and not any human being! It is because you have prayed for revelation, and God opened the secret to you for you humbly pleaded to Him and God answered your prayer. Hallelujah! All glory to the Almighty GOD!
You wrote that you were brought up to believe in the Trinity until God showed you the way. Amen!
I hope you would lead the way to more believers to discard the falsehood of "Trinity" for it does not occur in the Bible. There is only ONE GOD and Two Manifestations, the HOLY SPIRIT and JESUS CHRIST.
GOD'S MANIFESTATIONS: THE HOLY SPIRIT AND JESUS CHRIST
All glory to the Lord God! Amen.