Some Good Questions
I would say this is a 'strong meat' question (Heb 5:14). As I read and commented on a recent hub the question came up as to whether God created Satan to be evil, or whether God created all things ‘good’ (as we understand it) and evil just crept into the heart of the Archangel Lucifer from out of nowhere, causing him to entice a third of the angels to rebel against Michael and his angels, resulting in God casting Lucifer and his evil angels out of heaven to the earth. At that point, ‘Lucifer’ was renamed ‘Satan’, while his angels were renamed ‘demons’. Does the Bible support this doctrine? You might be surprised.
If God created Satan as an evil entity from the beginning, another question came up as to whether evil could even exist in heaven (i.e. before the war and subsequent fall).
Many people have also asked WHY God created Satan, or even allows him to exist. Was there a defect of some kind? Was God’s creation not good and perfect? Like ‘Lucifer’, Adam and Eve must have been created with a defect, too because they were not exempt from falling into temptation. This idea leads some to the opinion that God creates people with defects, including the propensity to sin, physical deformities and homo- or bi-sexual orientation. Therefore, they purport since people are naturally born to sin, they can be born Gay just as babies are born with deformities or disabilities. Bottom line is, if God created evil how can there be any righteous judgment?
As we delve into answering these questions, I will attempt to keep them brief and to the point. For further study, I will provide links to more of my hubs as they relate to the topics discussed. Let’s first start out with the war in heaven.
Lucifer and the War in Heaven
Rev 12:7-9 “And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.”
To answer the first question, Lucifer is not named or mentioned in this passage at all. Do you see an Archangel waging war against Michael and his angels? No. The Dragon, the Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan (the same entity) is the one waging war. There are three beasts shown in Revelation: The Dragon (Satan) who comes up out of the sea (Rev 12:3; 13:1); the Antichrist, who is the angel of the bottomless pit named Abaddon/Apollyon, aka the end-time king of Babylon (Isa 14; Rev 9:11; 11:7; 17:8); and the False Prophet who comes up from the earth (Rev 13:11). They are clearly separated in Rev 16:13 "And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast [Antichrist] and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs..."
In the following two hubs, you will clearly see that Lucifer is not Satan, but is a fallen cherub who was the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14. His sin identified in that chapter is that of the spirit of Antichrist and the final Antichrist to come. Indeed, he is empowered by the Dragon (Rev 13:2) and claims to be God (2 Thes 2:4).
Demons and Fallen Angels
Just as the Bible does not support the man-made doctrine of Lucifer becoming the Devil, it does not state that angels became demons. Demons are not fallen angels, but according to the writings of Enoch preserved on the ark with Noah and included in the Bible canon until the councils removed it, they are the disembodied spirits of the dead Nephilim, embodying the post-flood giants called the Anakim or Rephaim. They possess people and animals, as shown in the account of Legion in Mark 5. They spew false doctrines from those they possess (1 Tim 4:1). Fallen angels, on the other hand, also appear in both human and spiritual form. Those who sinned in the days of Noah were cast into Tartaroo, the deepest abyss of Hades (2 Pet 2:4), while the rest embody the kings of the earth and are lying messengers (even pastors). They also appear in spiritual form to inspire false religions (i.e. an angel "Moroni" appeared to Joseph Smith and the angel "Gabriel" to Muhammad). Let’s be cautioned by the words of Paul found in Gal 1:8 “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!”
If Satan was not an angel, then who or what is he? Jesus said in John 8:44 “He [Satan] was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” In Genesis 1:1 we read, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…” So, if Satan was a murderer from the beginning, then God created him that way. Only God is self-existent, according to the Word. Why would God do that, only to predestine Satan to eternal fire?
- Col 1:16 "For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him." (cross-ref Eph 6:12)
- Isa 54:16 "Behold, I Myself have created the smith who blows the fire of coals And brings out a weapon for its work; And I have created the destroyer [7843 shachath - a verb meaning to spoil, to ruin, to destroy, to pervert, to corrupt, to become corrupt, to wipe out] to ruin."
The word ‘Satan’ means ‘Adversary’. Adversity can be used for good or bad. Consider Num 2:22 “God’s anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary [Satan] against him". Believe it or not, God created Satan, His Adversary, for His divine purpose. If you don’t believe me, consider the following passages from the Bible:
- Prov 16:4 "The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked [7563 rasa – wicked or criminal] for the day of evil."
- Isa 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil [7451 – ra = bad, evil]: I the LORD do all these things.”
- Lam 3:38 “Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities  and good things come?”
- Amos 3:6 “If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity  occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?”
Now, calamity is not ordained by God to befall His children, as promised in Jer 29:11: “’For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity  to give you a future and a hope.”
Evil in the Presence of God?
“But evil can’t be in the presence of God”, you say. Well, the war DID take place IN HEAVEN, right? Evil was certainly cast out of heaven, yet Satan still came before God’s holy presence afterward, as found in Job 2:1: “On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before Him.” Remember, heaven is God’s Throne and the earth is His footstool (Isa 66:1). The testing of Job by Satan was invited by God (Job 2:3), yet with limitations (Job 2:6). This shows that God allowed Satan to test Job, yet He was sovereign over Satan’s desire to destroy Job. As another example, look at what Jesus told Satan in the desert, found in Mat 4:7: “Thou shalt not tempt the LORD thy God.”
One BIG thing I have learned is that God limits Satan when it comes to His children, but allows Satan to do as he pleases with those who choose or elect to be ‘children of the devil’ (John 8:44; 1 John 3:10), for they are under God's wrath. God created angels and humans with the ability to choose (Deut 30:19; Josh 24:15; Eze 18:31; 33:11; Rom 6:16). Without an Adversary, there is no choice.
Did God know that Adam and Eve would sin? Is God responsible for the testing or temptation of Adam and Eve and their subsequent fall? After all, He did place the tree of the knowledge of good and evil  in the Garden. Based on the hub link given in the previous section, God tests but does NOT tempt anyone to do evil. James 1:13 declares “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am being tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.”
Then why would God create a scenario where the Savior would have to shed His blood to reconcile mankind back to Him?
Did you know the Lamb of God was already predestined to reconcile mankind from the foundation of the world? Let’s read a couple of passages:
- Rev 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him [the Antichrist], whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” What? Was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world? No. How do we know this?
- Heb 9:26 states, “Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”
Although the provision of reconciliation had already been made, we must understand that just as God gave Adam and Eve a CHOICE to obey Him or Satan, and they chose to give their God-given reign over the world to Satan, God would also give them a CHOICE to be reconciled back to Him. Don’t think people weren’t reconciled back to God in the Old Testament because Jesus hadn’t died on the cross yet. Even the Law was not ‘added because of transgression, to act as a tutor to lead them to Christ’ (Gal 3:19-24) until Jacob’s descendants (Israel) were delivered from Egypt = 26 generations from Adam! Read Hebrews 11 to see all those patriarchs that were saved by faith, including Abraham, Moses and Elijah. I mean, how could Moses and Elijah show up on the Mount of Transfiguration if they weren’t saved (Mat 17)?
The Murder of Jesus
Satan, the murderer from the beginning, murdered Jesus on the cross by tempting those who would do it. Already, we’ve discussed that the crucifixion of Christ was ordained from the foundation of the world. Pretty awesome, isn’t it? Likewise, consider what Jesus told His disciples about Judas in John 6:70 “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" Jesus chose Judas ON PURPOSE. Does this make Judas a godly servant that performed His pre-ordained betrayal? If so, Satan would be considered the same. After all, Satan entered Judas and made him do it (Luke 22:3).
Let me tell you something; the serpent's seed cannot be planted in you unless you give Satan permission. It’s because of unrepented sin evil enters your body as its temple. Likewise, it is by invitation God's Seed (1 John 3:9), the Holy Spirit lives in your ‘temple’ (1 Cor 6:19). Judas had the same right to become a child of God as anyone else, but CHOSE somewhere along the way to submit his heart to Satan. Because of this, Jesus said in Mat 26:24, “The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born."
See, no one murdered Jesus against His divine will, as He said in John 10:18 “No one has taken it [My life] away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.”
So why does God allow Satan to exist? Bottom line is, Satan is used by God for His divine purpose, namely to exercise God’s wrath, discipline the rebellious and test and try the faith of believers. Note the following passages:
- 2 Sam 24:1 "And again the anger [639 – a nostril, nose, face, anger] of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited [5496 – incite, allure, instigate] David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." Cross-reference the exact same incident in 1 Chr 21:1 "Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved  David to number Israel."
- 1 Cor 5:5 “I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
- 1 Peter 1:7 “These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold--though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.”
Let's ponder the following verses regarding God's wrath and salvation:
- Eph 2:3 "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."
- Rom 5:9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
- 1Thes 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
We have established that Satan was created evil for God’s divine purpose. We also see God created angels with the ability to choose, as well as human beings. God does allow people to be born with what the world calls ‘defects’ due to different reasons:
- The sins of the parent(s) – examples only: incest, drugs, failed abortion
- A trial of faith ordained for them (or those in their lives)
- To bring glory to God by their healing, given by faith. An example of the latter is found in John 9:2 when Jesus was asked about a blind man: “And His disciples asked Him, ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?’ Jesus answered, ‘It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.’”
Why would they even ask Jesus such a question? Because they were aware of Num 14:18 and like passages: “The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.'
What about sexual orientation? I believe if homosexuality was determined in the womb, God would not have called it impure, degrading, indecent, error, depraved and not proper. Did you KNOW that God gives people over to homosexuality and why? Let’s look at Rom 1:24- 28:
- “Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. [4106 planes] And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.”
What’s even more terrifying is it is GOD who sends the strong delusion upon those who have rebelled against Him in the last days, that they will worship the beast and receive his mark, sealing their condemnation to the Lake of Fire! Let’s look at the following verses:
- 2 Thes 2:9-12 “[The Antichrist] the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [4106 planes], that they should believe a lie, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
- Rev 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
- Rev 14:9-10 “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.”
The LAST ADAM
To recap what we’ve learned, God created Satan as His Adversary from the beginning, the murderer that would put Him on the cross. God created Adam and Eve in His image, yet gave them the divine choice to love and serve Him or not, just as He did the angels. He knew they would choose to follow Satan’s enticement, yet He also pre-ordained the Way to redemption. Truly, it is by choice.
Adam, as the first ‘son of God’ (Luke 3:38), in that he was not born or begotten, but created from the earth, failed the test, leading to the condemnation of all mankind (John 3:18). Jesus, as the last Adam, the only begotten Son of God, did NOT fail the test, leading to the reconciliation of all who choose to be born again. We were all born of the first Adam (flesh); we must choose to be born again of the last Adam, who became the life-giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45). Are you born of the Spirit today? If you don’t know what this means, I invite you to read the hub link below.
Remember, Satan cannot touch God’s children unless God permits him to do so. In fact, those who are born again have been given authority over Satan by faith in the LORD Jesus Christ.
Thus, we read the words of Jesus in Luke 10:19, “Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.” If we read vs. 17 and 20 of this same account, "The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, 'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.'...[Jesus replied] 'Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."
Let us ponder the sovereign assurance found in Rom 8:28 “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.” And His purpose is that we, as He did, will overcome the Adversary, re-claiming our reign and inheritance by faith. I’ll close with the following promise by our LORD:
- Rev 12:11 “And they overcame him [Satan] because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.”
- Rev 21:7 “He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.”
jimmy on March 22, 2017:
dont stop asking god to forgive you of your sins every day,because you sin even with your thoughts and may not even know it,i think you must mean it when you ask him because he knows the deffernce
DabbleYou on June 11, 2016:
Great hub. Thanks for the enlightenment. Anyway, I think that if God did not create evil, then the world would've been boring. I'm just wondering what life would be like after He separates the good from the evil.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 08, 2016:
Yes, True Truthseeker, there is no such "name" as "Lucifer" in the non-translated, original Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. Even the Angel of the LORD (YHWH) is called "Satan" or "Adversary", so and Adversary is not always evil. God allows His children to be tested, for the Scriptures declare it to be so -- we are to be tried by the fire to be purified, that our faith shine forth as gold. It's difficult for us, yes, but when we put our faith in God He prevails. That's what we're supposed to learn, amen.
True Truthseeker on June 02, 2016:
As darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of the influence of God. Incidentally, the spirit being who allowed a wrongful thought to germinate into wrong actions was called Resister/ Adversary/ Satan. There is no personal name revealed of him in the holy Writings. The word lucifer is a contamination of luciferi or dawn of the morning. Compare the text in Isaiah in as many different Translations as you can.
justin on September 24, 2015:
You need to remember that god created Satan to test us if we are truly a "good species". as a trial to make us better people.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on July 18, 2015:
Frank, I am glad you, too, know that the proper name Lucifer is not in the Bible, nor is this the name of Satan (even a name of Satan). I fully agree. Perhaps you should re-read the first paragraph and should continue reading, longer tgan a minute, before bearing false witness. Hope to hear from you again, aftee you've done so.
Frank on July 17, 2015:
The author of this page does not really know a lot about the Bible, and I had to read less than a minute to see this. She refers to Satan as Lucifer and anyone who does this isn't very knowledgeable. "Lucifer" is the Latin translation of the Hebrew word "הֵילֵל" which means "morning star". The King James Version of the Bible kept this word while NO OTHER English translation did! It is only used ONE TIME in the whole KJV Bible (Isa 14:12). The Latin Vulgate uses the word "lucifer" four times, none of which refer to Satan.
In the KJV, "lucifer," is used in describing the king of Babylon, not Satan. Satan's name IS NOT, nor ever was, Lucifer! Any person who thinks they are smart enough to write a blog and to influence people's thoughts on God, really should know what they are talking about.
Jesse Helton from San Francisco on April 13, 2014:
I found your hub very interesting, maybe you'll enjoy mine on demonology and religions.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on March 16, 2014:
Hello truth - The Old Testament (Tanakh) was written by inspiration of God, for all the prophecies about Jesus Christ were fulfilled in the Messiah; other prophecies have come to pass exactly as written and some yet to come (and because no prophecy of Scripture - Tanakh - has failed to date, we have confidence they will all be completed as written).
We all came from God, through Adam and Eve. We can see three sets of brothers from the beginning where one followed God, the other went their own way (rebelled against God and their brother who followed God: Cain and Abel - Cain killed Abel; Ishmael and Isaac - Isaac was born of Abraham and Sarah, while Ishmael by Abraham and his handmaid (one born according to the flesh, the other according to the Spirit - see Gal 4:29); Esau and Jacob - Esau disregarded his birthright for his immediate gratification of hunger, while Jacob coveted the birthright and obtained it. Jacob was renamed Israel and thus, they were the chosen people of God.
Those who are not of the natural-born house of Israel (Jacob had 12 sons) are grafted into them by faith in Jesus Christ, while those of the natural-born house of Israel that reject Jesus Christ are cut off from the "inheritance" of salvation in Christ Jesus.
truth on March 12, 2014:
interesting site. Can I ask how do you know "god" created the bible or if it was "Satan"?? The bible does have some racism, hatred, evil things int he old testament where only "Jews" are said to be god's people. Clearly you don't think that's the case? That only Jews are part of god?
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 11, 2014:
(continued to Lisa)
Let’s start with your comment, “I will admit some sins I enjoy. We are all adults here so I will blatantly say sex is very enjoyable. And when it's with a person I love and care about how is that wrong?” Delusional means God says it’s WRONG, yet you reason in your mind, it’s NOT WRONG. Is disobeying God loving Him? Is it loving of you to bind another person to your spiritual demonic strongholds by engaging in sexual sin? The two commandments we are to keep are to love God and love others; it does not mean God loves you, in spite of your love for sin, and you love others greater than you love God. John 14:15 “"If you love Me, keep my commandments.”
1 John 2:15 “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”
James 4:4 “You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.”
If you read Rom 1 to see WHY God hands people over to their own desires and stops pursuing them, ask yourself if any of those reasons apply:
Vs. 18 – they suppress the Truth
Vs. 21 – they knew God, but did not honor Him or give thanks.
Vs. 22 – they profess to be wise, yet become as fools.
Vs. 23 – they exchanged the glory (manifestation of God in Christ) of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man (i.e. sexual intimacy, admiration and ‘worship’ of His creation) and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures (evolution, perhaps?)
Vs. 25 - they exchanged the truth of God for a lie (i.e. creation vs. evolution; “I was born that way”), and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator.
Vs. 28 – they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer.
Vs. 29-31 – in additional to their sexual deviance, they are filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; (if you haven’t reached this level yet, it will come).
Vs. 32 - and although they know the ordinance (commandment) of God, that those who practice such things (same-sex unions – Lev 20:13) are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them (Gay pride, encouraging others to practice homo and bi-sexuality).
After all this, you said, “I believe in God I trust him. Why won't he cure me?” and “I feel like when I pray God is like "Oh the lost cause is reaching out for guidance again." I feel like he is not within my grasp.” God’s Word says in John 9:31, “We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.”
It’s time to exchange the lie for the Truth of God, Lisa. You’re still alive. You have until you take that last breath to SUBMIT yourself to your Creator and the only One who can save you. A castle divided against itself cannot stand. You cannot serve both God and Satan, or God and money. I don’t know what the root motivations are in your heart, but when God moves in, demons flee and when your house is full of the Holy Spirit, he is not invited and trembles to come near you.
This is all I can do – write to you. If I care, I can only imagine how much God cares about you. You need to wake up from your slumber and realize who you were created to be! And because of what God did for you, there is HOPE to replace HOPELESSNESS. Amen.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 11, 2014:
Lisa, I’m going to answer you a thoroughly as I can, considering this venue. I will be posting two comments because of the length of my response.
You said, “I was hoping to hear some answers that left me feeling good but unfortunately they left me feeling even more hopeless.” Now making you feel good (rather than conviction unto possible repentance by the Holy Spirit) would not be the loving thing for me to do, if I truly care about your salvation. Let me start with this - the only sin that is unforgivable in this life and the next is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which is to call the Holy Spirit unclean (unholy). To say God created someone homosexual from the womb is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. For those who say Jesus, God in the flesh, was a homosexual have blasphemed the Holy Spirit. All I can say is, if the blasphemy was committed in ignorance, perhaps God will have mercy because of the shed blood of Jesus. If they know better and do this anyhow, they hate God and are not given one ounce of mercy.
Symptoms of possible demonic oppression, if not possession: "feeling even more hopeless"; "I battle bi polar everyday"; "Maybe things I experimented with when I was a child or teenager led to my bi polar rearing its ugly face"; "mentally I'm attacked by demons each day". "My thoughts are jumbled it's like he (Satan) won’t let go". "And fear and paranoia is what's holding me back." "I have come to the conclusion that the devil is more proactive in keeping me stuck than God is in trying to save me."
Possible contributors to demonic doors (invites): multiple sexual partners (as I mentioned before); pharmaceuticals (misdiagnosis/mixing/addiction). The Greek word for ‘sorcery’ is pharmakeia, meaning "administer drugs" – properly, drug-related sorcery, like the practice of magical-arts, etc. The world sometimes labels demonic oppression/possession as mental illness; the church sometimes labels mental illness as demonic oppression/possession. The way to get rid of demons is deal with the behaviors that give them permission to torment you. If the mental illness disappears as well, then you know for sure, don’t you?
Church might be part of the problem – were you attending a ‘legalistic’ church? The Law incites people to sin and sin, guilt, a low self-esteem and feeling powerless is the result. Churches can mess people up more than being in a personal relationship with Christ and reading His Word, learning to study with the Hebrew and Greek concordance dictionaries. As a newborn babe, you let Jesus teach you and research the things He’s drawing you to learn about.
Spiritual warfare is what you’re experiencing, when you stated, “The devil works harder on me when I turn to the Lord.” Of course he does! He’s a slave-owner and for him to have to set you free by the power of the Highest One, Jesus Christ, is not going to be willful. Unless you confess your sins to Jesus Christ (being truly repulsed by them, realizing you yourself are powerless over them) and ask Him to deliver you of these demonic strongholds and fill you with His Holy Spirit, you will not be able to overcome the devil. Look up the armor of God in Ephesians 6 – what is the armor? Truth, Righteousness, Gospel (that God came in the flesh to shed His blood for your sins and rose again on the third day), Faith, Salvation, Spirit of God, Word of God, Prayer.
God has graced you with a beautiful child (heterosexually, I might add). Focus on this! “I will say I am blessed to have a beautiful healthy daughter I thank God for her. Having her made me open my eyes it made me change my ways. I'm not perfect I've done and said bad stuff to people but I'm the first person that would give the shirt off my back if someone needed it. Inside. . Deep deep inside I'm kind.” So why have you buried the creation of God “deep, deep inside”? This is what “suppressing the Truth” is all about (see Rom 1:18 below). You then went on to say, “What's more important to me is that my daughter knows Christ and lives a happy life.” Your daughter is going to learn more from your behavior than your heart’s intent. If you love your daughter this way, can you not understand God’s great love for you and what He did for you in your stead? How can you trample on so great a love?
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 11, 2014:
Hello, Anthony Isaac Wells - what a blessing to be a natural-born Hebrew, the chosen people from whom Messiah was born. When you speak of Law, are you referring to the Law of God (the 10 Words) or including the Law of Moses (the Old Covenant), and I say "Old" because Yeshua used the phrase "New Covenant" in His blood (Jer 31:31; Mat 26:28) - in that the Old was ratified by the blood of goats and bulls, while the New is ratified in His blood (Heb 9:12).
It truly is a miracle of salvation when those ingrained to the Law of Moses for thousands of years graduate from the Law of the flesh (works of the flesh) into the Law of the Spirit (works of the Spirit) of life in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:2). I witnessed such a miracle recently, as I have only known Hebrews that boast in the Law and claim salvation by it (rejecting the Messiah), Jews who disregard the Law, believing they are saved because they are Jews (rejecting the Messiah), and Christians who were initially saved by faith and because they know not the Spirit of Christ, they are pulled into the Law of Moses to feel accepted by God...thus, reverting to/remaining in the Old nullifies the New (Gal 2:21; 3:10).
It would be wonderful to live in a 'world' where the days of the week, the years and so forth were not of Satan's kingdom; however, we are in this world, but not of it (I do not celebrate the pagan days either). In the Day of the LORD, the days, months, years and seasons will be restored fully. The Sabbath rest is in Christ Jesus, which is what HEBREWS 4 is all about - the Hebrews that kept the seventh day did NOT enter HIS rest (rather their own); to keep this day or that day is no longer the revelation of the Sabbath rest in Christ. The keeping of the literal day used to be the 'sign' whereby God's people were known by Him (Ex 31:13). The 'sign' now is manifest in those who have entered His rest by faith. They are 'sealed' (as a signet) by His Spirit and nothing else (Eph 4:30). Yes, you should apply 'olam' to the Old Covenant, knowing it was going to come to it's end.
May the revelation of the Spirit be made intimately known to you, according to His will. God bless you.
Lisa on February 11, 2014:
Well what your response just told me is that I've already been judged. And God is not striving to save me. Yet here I am sitting here reading this article searching for answers. I battle bi polar everyday. And beg and pray that God takes it away. But he doesn't...I have been in and out of church my entire life. Back and forth. And mentally I'm attacked by demons each day. It's a constant battle begging God to make that battle go away. Truth is I fear getting close to God, but it's not fear of God I am afraid of. The devil works harder on me when I turn to the Lord. My thoughts are jumbled it's like he wont let go. If I am possessed which I have thought time and time again. How do I get that out because all the medication in the world is not fixing me. I will admit some sins I enjoy. We are all adults here so I will blatantly say sex is very enjoyable. And when it's with a person I love and care about how is that wrong? I believe in God I trust him. Why won't he cure me. Why when I ask him does he not rid me of the horrible thoughts Satan has planted in my mind. I feel like when I pray God is like "Oh the lost cause is reaching out for guidance again. " I feel like he is not within my grasp. I will say I am blessed to have a beautiful healthy daughter I thank God for her. Having her made me open my eyes it made me change my ways. I'm not perfect I've done and said bad stuff to people but I'm the first person that would give the shirt off my back if someone needed it. Inside. . Deep deep inside I'm kind. But life has thrown so much ugly at me that I'm angry all the time. .. I'm frustrated and I'm grasping at straws trying to better my life for my daughter. Because at this point where I go when I die doesn't matter to me. What's more important to me is that my daughter knows Christ and lives a happy life. I can only pray the same demons that torment me will not also torment her. I would burn in the pits of hell if I knew Jesus would forgive her for all her future wrong doings and anything I may have done in my life to bestow those demons upon her. If it's too late for me so be it. Because honestly if things don't change for me soon and i stop searching for that goodness in myself and other people she is going to be affected by my shortcomings. Going back to my previous post. Science has proof of evolution also proof that there is a gay gene... and apparently mental illness is a chemical imbalance in the brain and hereditary. So I was born this way. Maybe things I experimented with when I was a child or teenager led to my bi polar rearing its ugly face. But I want it to go away. I want to trust God can do that but society puts more emphasis on medication and therapy. This world is horrible. Lies after lies...I want that truth that your so sure about but it's not easy. And fear and paranoia is what's holding me back. I don't know what else to say. I was hoping to hear some answers that left me feeling good but unfortunately they left me feeling even more hopeless. I admire you taking the time to respond to everyone and really putting your all into your answers I just wish I found more peace with in them. Instead I have come to the conclusion that the devil is more proactive in keeping me stuck than God is in trying to save me
Anthony Isaac Wells on February 11, 2014:
I'm a Hebrew! I do not follow the ways of the world and it's systems. I have been taught by no hands and because of this I keep the Commandments, The Feast (not the world holidays the feast of man), The days of the week (not the pegan days ,days name after pegan gods) , The months also named after pegan gods and the Sabbath (not sundays) I do not follow the sun god ,who worship on SUNday. Today date in not 2014, it is the year 5774 from the creation of the new man and not the man of old (Genesis 6). In the Hebrew, we are now in the month of Adar 1 a leap year and the day is Yom Revee'ee meaning the fourth day. I'm taught by the one with no hands no man has ever taught me anything with the exception of evil. I can I know this and other thing about Yahwah. Why, We are close the the end of days. The days that Daniel was ordered to close the books until the end of days not the end of the world, only the world system that we now are living under.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 10, 2014:
I hear what you're saying Anthony Isaac Wells, praise God! If you read my hub "Trials and Temptations" you would have come across the verse in James 1:14 "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."
Satan is God's Adversary and God is Satan's Adversary. The very word "Satan" means "Adversary". The angel of Ez 28:13-15 is not speaking of Lucifer (a proper name inserted into the Hebrew text that is actually nowhere to be found in the original language), but the king of Tyre (Ez 28:1). The king of Tyre actually fought against the cherub of Isa 14:12 (aka "Lucifer", the king of Babylon) in Ez 29:18. In fact, the Bible does not declare "the Dragon, the serpent of old, the devil and Satan" to have ever been an angel, though he is transformed into an angel of light. (2 Cor 11:14). No reason to transform into an angel of light, if you already were/are one.
It appears that God's creation has the propensity to sin, for Jesus said, "There is only One good and that is God." (Mat 19:17) And, since we know Jesus (the last Adam) was perfect and without sin --- well, we know He was and is God. There was no lust in Him to be "drawn away and enticed", no matter how hard Satan tried to test Him. Jesus simply replied using the very Word of which He was and is (the Truth) and rightfully commanded him, "Thou shalt not tempt the LORD, thy God." (Mat 4:7)
Satan and his angels were kicked out of heaven for rebelling against God. I personally believe that God gave Adam and Eve the authority to rule over everything (Gen 1:26; Ps 8:6-8) and 1 Cor 6:3 declares we shall judge the angels, too. It was after Adam and Eve were created that Satan showed up in the Garden. Therefore, I think he didn't want to 'bow' to mankind, was kicked out of heaven and then went after them to cause them to give their God-given rulership over to him. After all, Satan did say to Jesus in Luke 4:6, "I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish." Well, we know GOD didn't hand the domain over to Satan. This is why Jesus took it back (Mat 28:18) to give it back to us by faith in Him (Luke 10:19). So much beautiful stuff to write about!!
If you are interested in more about what the Bible has to say about Satan (and "Lucifer"), I invite you to read my hub, "Is Lucifer the Devil?": https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/...
Yes, may we be given right to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the Paradise of God (Rev 2:7) and ALSO in the New Jerusalem (Rev 22:14)! That tells us where Paradise is - we enter from this life into the next (Luke 23:43). That Holy City surely comes down out of heaven from God to rest upon the New Earth (Rev 21:1-2). Halleluyah! I love to write on these discoveries. The Bible is so rich to our souls ~ a love letter from our Creator and Savior.
Anthony Isaac Wells on February 10, 2014:
Perfect ; Entirely without flaws, defects, or short comings. Ex. A perfect creation, The perfect creator. Perfect accurate, exact, or correct in every detail no countefeit. This describe Yahwah and His creation even Lucifer was found perfect and without iniguity until Sin was found in Him. So , Yahwah is perfect and cannot Sin then sin would have to come from a created being that being, being Lucifer. A perfect creator that has created perfection can not sin, It's impossible for the creator to sin and to even think of sin. But, some one with the pride of Lucifer and a created being can sin and did sin and for that sin he was kick out of Heaven. Thus being kicked out of heaven and down to the earth Lucifer created his own laws and isms. This started by beguiling the women . Now mankind has follow Adam and Eve by excepting the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil , Satans tree in stead of following the Tree of Life, which is the Almighty tree. Lucifer created sin and not the Almighty.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 07, 2014:
As much as I wish I could be very sensitive to your questions, so as not to possibly hurt your feelings or not communicate in a way that is merciful and gracious, I don’t know you or your circumstances. I don’t know the choices you’ve made in your life, what your religious upbringing may have been or how you’ve been taught or influenced by others or your environment. So, I will just straight up answer your questions with what I’ve gleaned from the Scriptures (for there is LIFE in them).
Regarding testing and temptations, I have written on this subject and I invite you to read about the difference between testing and temptations (link below). God tests our faith by allowing Satan to tempt us. How can we say we believe and have faith when we don’t arm ourselves with God’s Word, put our trust in Him and thus exercise the power He’s given us to pass the test? 2 Cor 13:5 “Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?”
Trials & Temptations: https://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/h......
How do we know gold is real, lest it be tested by fire, purified and refined? Only then is it proven and its value is precious. God has wrath against the wicked and the fake. The wicked prosper in this world, yet will steal, kill and destroy others to prosper – it’s all about them at the expense of others. They may live in the body, but their souls are chaff. The righteous are the ones stolen from, killed and destroyed by the wicked because they don’t have it in their hearts to even recognize evil or do evil unto others. They may be killed in the body, but their souls are gold and will reap eternal life. Mat 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
Evolution is a lie. Aliens? Fallen angels. God is omnipresent, so yes, He lives in the Universe. God did not create bi-polar and mental illness. Whether it’s inherited because someone somewhere in the family tree sinned by some sort of occult activity and/or substance abuse is what I wonder, but I won’t know this side of heaven. My sister suffered from schizophrenia as did my mother – go see a psychiatrist and they’ll be sure to mess up your chemistry even more = side effects = death. My sister died nine years ago at 39. It’s very difficult to say whether mental illness such as Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality Disorder), bi-polar, schizophrenia and so forth are truly physical, rather than spiritual. People allow demons IN by the various things they participate in, or have been victimized to (i.e. occult, drugs, sexual rebellion, gang murders, severe abuse, etc.) One of the sure signs of demonic possession is paranoia (aka FEAR). Prov 28:1 “The wicked flee though no one pursues.” Demons can leave and return – if you haven’t been filled with the Holy Spirit they have every right to do this, because you give them that right. Does Jesus come for visits or does He live IN you?
I’ve written on this subject, entitled “Can a Christian be Demon-Possessed?”: https://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/h......
The ‘voice’ of Jesus is only ‘heard’ when you are baptized in His Spirit. Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow me.” (John 10:27) Speaking of ‘know’, this is intimacy. His voice is ‘heard’ in the spiritual, inward man – it’s a thought, in the heart, in the conscience, knowledge, enlightenment, affecting the will, goals and direction. Even then, all these things must be subject to the Word of God – anything contrary is not of God, but is of ourselves or of the one who disguises himself as an angel of light (Satan and his demons). This spiritual battle goes on until you learn to apply God’s Word and walk in the Truth (rather than believe the LIE). These things are given us to perfect us or destroy us – fight or flight. The choice is yours.
God forgives our sin when we are truly hating the sin, are sorry for it, and ask Him to forgive us. We must try to stay away from that sin. Sometimes, if it’s a stronghold (as in an addiction), the battle will go on until the addiction is conquered. Because substances, for instance, affect brain chemistry some addictions are nearly impossible to overcome without death. I say, it’s best never to flirt with addictive substances to begin with, so that type of torment doesn’t have to be a part of your life. Truly, the ongoing struggle is the natural consequence, while God’s mercy may yet cover your soul on the other side. He knows the hearts of people and whether they hate the sin or love the sin. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is to call Him Satan (to say He is unholy or unclean – Mark 3:30). For anyone to do that is pure wickedness and straight from the pit of hell. This is why it will never be forgiven in this life or the next.
God’s creation is beautiful. Males and females are beautiful. Does this mean we lust after both sexes and if so, why? To lust is selfishness – you want the pleasure and it’s all about the flesh, not the Spirit. To even be attracted sexually to the same sex is not natural and could very well be a result of demonic invitation somewhere in your life. People are NOT “born that way”. The more you practice sexual sin, the more demonic strongholds take place. You are becoming “one” with every person you fornicate with and every person they’ve fornicated with (1 Cor 6:16). Romans 1:24, 26 and 28 tell us that God specifically hands people over to their own lusts of sexual reprobation. It means He is no longer striving to save that person, but has already judged them, even in this life. They will receive in their own person the due penalty of their error (delusion).
The definition of delusion, generally is this: an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.
The Greek definition from the Bible is plánē deviant behavior; a departure from what God says is true; an error (deception) which results in wandering (roaming into sin).
To read more on this subject, I’ve written “Homosexuality and Christianity”: https://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/h......
Deuteronomy 30:19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants.”
LIsa on February 06, 2014:
This is all mind blowing for me. .. why would God test us if he already knows whether we will rise above or fail. .. is it a game to him to see us suffer at the hands of Satan. .if he is all living and good why does he do that. .. and why does he have wrath. .. if Adam And eve are real how is evolution explained. .. what about aliens we possibly be the only life forms in the universe. .. does God live in the universe? Why would he create bipolar or mental illness. .. why I don't understand. .. so I'm destined to fail because bipolar is its own breed of demon... can one actually hear the voice of Jesus? I have felt God. I've felt him take fear out of my mind and fill it with peace but the fear comes back. .. why. ... if God is good why does he test us? He knows our hearts why the tests? The torment. .. ugh I can not understand or wrap my mind around any of this. I know I believe in God and I know Jesus died for our sins. Does that mean I can keep sinning. I will be forgiven when asked then right. And if blasphemy against the holy spirit is the only unforgivable sin then what is the big deal if we sin. I don't get it. I consider myself bisexual but how can I help it if I am attracted to both sexes if God makes people that way. Does that mean he made me messed up on purpose to test me. I'm so confused after reading this article.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 05, 2014:
anonymous, I hear your heart and I feel your troubled spirit. Please understand that God does not do anything unjustly. In response to the 70,000 in Israel being destroyed because of David's sin (regardless of who provoked him to number Israel - either way, David was the one angry when he did it, for he rebelled against God's Law in doing so). The article I posted for you states this: "Perhaps it was because of Israel’s multiplied sins and rebellion against God throughout the centuries. Perhaps it was a lesson to the people (and to us as well) that the people suffer when their leaders go astray. The reality is that God didn’t justify His actions with a reason, nor does He have to."
I already addressed that all humanity is not considered sinful because of Adam and Eve's fall (I posted scripture references for you). PEOPLE are given a choice and must decide which g/God they are going to serve.
Rom 6:16 "Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?" CALVINISTS would not preach this verse, would they?
The Old Covenant was a much harsher Covenant than the New. The letter of the Law kills, but the Spirit brings life in Christ Jesus (2 Cor 3:6). If you put your faith and trust in Him, know that He knows you and loves you. Those Israelites in Goshen that had been in captivity in Egypt for 400 years weren't even touched by the plagues God poured out in Egypt (Ex 11:7). And like the author above said, sometimes the people of a nation will suffer the consequences of their leaders. The Pharaoh that enslaved Israel was a wicked man, rebellious against God. Yes, God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but that's because Pharaoh had already sinned against God and His people to begin with!
Now, let's go to Levitcus 26 about the eating the flesh of sons and daughters...start in verse 1: The COMMAND is given. " ‘You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the LORD your God." Now, let's go down to vs. 27-30 to see how this relates to vs. 1 "‘Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. ‘Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. ‘I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you."
We can certainly know that to be under God's wrath is not the place to be - and hell is not going to be 'tolerable'. God's own creation chooses to stand up against Him and rebel? We are also given power to repent! We have the grace and mercy of God to be given His Holy Spirit to lead us and strengthen us! We can hear His voice! They didn't have that indwelling Holy Spirit then, but had to rely on Moses and the prophets. There is only one Way to be saved from God's wrath and that is to put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Then, believe His Word - that we are His children. He will discipline us to teach us, but we are no longer children of wrath! I pray you will accept the Truth in thanksgiving, for what God did for you, as He did for me.
anonymous on February 05, 2014:
I believe you're a Fundamentalist. Fundamentalists keep making arguments and execuses to get God off the hook for having a world fillex with evil, pain, suffering, and death. This is theodicy and apologetics. Fundamentalists don't see the cruelty, immorality, and insanity of the God we worship. Is it right to blame and punish everyone else for the sin of two people who ate a forbidden fruit? Is this love and mercifulness? No it isn't. I don't know how you can justify killing 70,00 men because of David taking a census. Its insanity. And how do you explain that it was either God Himself who incited David to take that census in 2Samuel while in Chronicles its Satan who incites David to take that census? Now we have at least disturbing questions to address. 1)why did 70, 000 men have to be killed for such a trivial, silly offense? And I recall that David apologized but it fell on deaf ears to God. 2) Who incited David to take that census, God or Satan? Someone needs to do a lot of explaining here. This is another example of the Bible contradicting itself. And what about Natural evils such as cancer, malaria, centipedes, tsunamis? The Bible says God created all things. Well all things wold include horrible things such as cancer and centipedes. And why do innocent animals have to suffer and die for Adam and Eve's sin? Why ask an intelligent question to an unintelligent God? Why ask a rational question to an irrational God? Why ask a reasonable question to an unreasoning God?Its unfair and unwise to allow Adam and Eve's sin to be passd on to all future unborn humans and its cruel, immoral, and insane to curse and punish the the entire world with Natural evils such as cancer, centipedes, hurricanes, tsunamis. This is not love and mercifulness. This is cruelty and nastiness. Satan maybe evil but so is the Bible God and I point out again Isahaia chapter 45, verse 7, wjere it says of God, I make peace and create evil.(King James Bible) Churchmen ignore this verse. I have yet to hear a sermon in church about this verse. Are churchmen disturbed and embarrassed about this verse? I know I am.Calvinists such as Fred Phelps would have no qualms about preaching this verse as he revels in cruelty and he embraces and worships a cruel God. I recall watching one of his sermons where he says that people shall eat the flesh of their sons and daughters. Where did he get this disgustimg idea? From the Bible God's own words in the Bible. Both God and Satan are evil if one reads the Bible objectively. The world is a hellhole and horror movie ruled by the Devil and not a loving God. I fear goimg to hell. I live in endless fear.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 05, 2014:
Hello anonymous, Satan is the god of evil, for he tempts God's creation to do evil, is the father of lies, steals, kills and destroys. What makes Satan evil is that he does these things to the righteous. God, on the other hand, created innocent people, does not lie or steal, does not murder or destroy the righteous. We can start there. While Satan's wrath is against the righteous, God's wrath is against the unrighteous, the disobedient (Eph 5:6; Rom 1:18).
Here is an excellent, yet brief article on why God was angry with David for taking the census and indeed gave David three choices of the consequence for his sin. It was David who chose the plague that killed 70,000 Israelites. http://www.gotquestions.org/David-census.html
Yes, God gave Adam and Eve the tree and the Law not to eat of it. He did not make them sin. He did allow Satan to tempt them to disobey God, which they did. Though Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the serpent, each received a consequence for their sin. The curse upon Adam and Eve was lifted at the cross, but only for those who put their faith in Jesus Christ. The rest of mankind remains under the wrath of God, for they are rejecting their Savior and won't subject themselves to the Way the Truth and the Life (John 3:18; 14:6).
I believe God created Adam and Eve to rule over everything, just as Gen 2:26 states. When Eve, then Adam chose to bow to the serpent's temptation, they actually gave their God-given right to reign on this earth over to him, for Satan is called the 'god of this world' in 2 Cor 4:4, and told Jesus in the desert that all the kingdoms of this world had been handed over to him and if Jesus would only bow down and worship him, he would give them to Jesus (aka the last Adam) - in other words, give them back (Luke 4:6). Of course, that was a lie. Jesus took the kingdoms of this world back through His death on the cross, in order to give that kingdom authority back to the righteous (those who believe in Him and make Him LORD and King of their lives). Mat 28:18; Luke 10:19
God does not impute Adam's sin on anyone (John 15:22; John 9:2-3). Yes, we are not God Himself and have the same weakness as Adam, the propensity to sin. We all physically die because of their sin, but are made alive in Christ Jesus (Rom 5:17). From the foundation of the world, not only did God give the test of the tree in the Garden, but He also ordained His salvation (Rev 13:8) - by faith evidenced through obedience in the Old Testament (i.e. Abraham), then added the Law of Moses (Gal 3:19) , to salvation by faith evidenced through obedience once again in the New Testament (Jam 2:14). Read Heb 11 and see all the patriarchs saved by faith, prior to the Law, prior to the cross. This same faith is what we LIVE by today. The cross applies to all generations, past, present and future (Heb 9:26).
I have done a study on Satan and what his purpose is, if you or anyone else would like to examine the scriptures in this regard: https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Satans-PU...
I hope my response, though summarized as it may be, will help you understand more fully, the nature of God and why we are thankful for the cross - for the ability to repent of our sin, to receive forgiveness, put our faith in Christ, be thankful for God's grace and mercy, and above all victory over Satan and death, unto eternal LIFE.
anonymous on February 04, 2014:
Yahweh the Bible God does indeed do evil and creates evil. Isahaia chapter 45, verse 7 says, I make peace and create evil in the King James Bible. The Nature He made is full of evil, violence, danger, cruelty, killing, death, repulsiveness. Diseases, centipedes, jellyfish, ticks, fleas, lice, hurricanes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions are all part of Yahweh's creation. The Bible God killed 70,000 men just because David took a census and He curses and punishes the ENTIRE creation for all time for the sin of two people, Adam and Eve. The Bible God has showm more cruelty and has caused and created more suffering to His creation just because Adam and Eve ate a forbidden fruit which He orchestrated for them to eat. God set up humanity to fail. If blame is to be thrown on Satan and demons then who createx Satan and demons? Why is this God allowing Satan and demons to tamper, corrupt, and ruin God's creation? Its like the experiment of an insane scientist in a laboratory. This God is conducting a cruel, immoral, insane, destructive experiment and He has abdicated the world to the Devil and He allows Adam and Eve's sin to be passed on to ALL future unborn humans. Its unfair, unwise, cruelty, carelessness, negligence, incompetence and if the mass of humanity are headed to hell for the next life to be tortured forever in unimaginably horrifying ways then this is another win for Satan. Satan the Devil and evil rules the world and not a loving, wise God. The world is a hellhole and horror movie. This is the work of the Devil.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on January 31, 2014:
Hi Anthony, I can understand your passion; however the Scriptures declare what is posted here. It sounds like you have some knowledge of the Book of Enoch (great book) and I appreciate that!! On the other hand, you have also been spoon-fed the doctrine of Lucifer being a head angel who fell and became Satan. The Bible does not declare the Dragon, the Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan to have ever been an angel. The Bible declares, "In the beginning God created..." just as it declares Satan was "a murderer from the beginning."
That fallen cherub of Isaiah 14:12 does not have a proper name "Lucifer" (that's a name inserted into the translation, rather than what's in the Hebrew text. The name of that fallen cherub, who is also the king of end-time Babylon, the false "star of the morning", also known as the "man of sin" or "son of perdition" (famously called the Antichrist) is given in Rev 9:11 (cross-ref Rev 11:7) = Abaddon/Apollyon "angel of destruction" (that's what "son of perdition" means).
I have written on this subject, entitled "Is Lucifer the Devil?" and I invite you to come by: https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/...
Anthony Isaac Wells on January 31, 2014:
Yahweh did not create evil Satan did! Before he was thrown out of heaven along with the two hundred fallen angels, Lucerfer was a Cherubing Angels in fact Lucifer was the head of all Angels, but when the Almighty created man as his growning creation and told Lucifer that he would have to serve man Lucifer began to turn on the Almighty and thus Evil and bride became his way . The Bible also calls Satan the god of this present day and age 2Cor. 4:4. So, no the Almighty did not and can not do evil the evil is done through Satan and the fallen Angels , who also taught manknid evil things such as war, murder, abortion and other sin against mankind
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on December 13, 2013:
anonymous - you have quite a lot of questions. Because I must go to work in a few minutes, I will say that the Bible says there was a six-day creation "and evening to morning was the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, six day" (see Gen 1:5). Based on the genealogy in the Bible, we know Adam and Eve were not created billions of years ago.
However, how old is the earth and was there life on earth before that six-day creation period? I believe so, for if you look at what God did on day one, two, etc., He did not create the earth on any of those days. It was already here.
Gen 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
Furthermore, I find it interesting the after the Great Flood, God told Noah in Gen 9:1 to "replenish the earth", obviously because the earth had already been "plenished" before. The shocking truth is, God told Adam and Eve the same thing, to "replenish the earth" in Gen 1:28.
Regarding Satan - the Bible tells us "He was a murderer from the beginning" (John 8:44). Physical death entered the world when sin entered the world. Satan is called the "god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4). There are reasons people get sick and die, and sometimes it is judgment. 1 Cor 11:29-30, for example: "For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. That is why many of you are weak and sick and some have even died."
Also, when God poured out His judgment of plagues upon Egypt because Pharaoh wouldn't cooperate in letting God's people go free, understand that Ex 11:7 tells us, "But against any of the sons of Israel a dog will not even bark, whether against man or beast, that you may understand how the LORD makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel.'" It is God's sovereignty that determines whether we shall ever be harmed or kept from harm, and for His reasons alone (i.e. Job).
Lastly, may I share Isa 57:1 "The righteous man perishes, and no man takes it to heart; And devout men are taken away, while no one understands. For the righteous man is taken away from evil,"
You can also read 2 Kings 20 where God warned Hezekiah he was going to die, yet extended his life by 15 years because Hezekiah pleaded with God for this. Evil resulted in Hezekiah's life, whereas that was not God's perfect will, yet His permissive will.
So, I suppose you can ponder these things.
anonymous on December 10, 2013:
Hi Judah's Daughter. Please forgive me for being rude. I think it was a misunderstanding. I see you have published my comment. Your hubs are intelligent and interesting and you are polite and courteous after all. On the subject of Natural evils or Physical evils, such as cancer, malaria, tooth decay, stonefish(a venomous fish with a painful sting) ebola, brown recluse spiders, centipedes, hurricanes, tsunamis, birth defects, ticks, fleas, lice, etc, who or what created or caused these evils which cause suffering and death to both people and animals? Science and evolution say that there was violence, predation, venomous creatures, parasites, volcanic eruptions, diseases, death, and extinctions long before Adam and Eve's sin, and considerably before hominids existed. Adam and Eve are dated from 6000 to 32,000 years ago and hominids(human-like primates) are dated at up to 6 million years ago. There is evidence that some Dinosaurs suffered from cancer, tooth decay, broken bones, mosquitoes, ticks, and worms 65 million to 100 million years ago, and many Dinosaurs killed and ate each other. How does this reconcile with the creationist belief that the creation is only 6000 to 32,000 years old and made in 6 literal days and that before Adam and Eve sinned, or before The Fall, there world was originally a paradise and peaceable kingdom with no predation, no killing, no disease, and no death? According to this belief, everything was created by God in 6 literal days and so everything is practically the same age, including humans and Dinosaurs. This means that humans and Dinosaurs originally lived together and that Tyrannosaurus was originally a herbivore. This means that Mosquitoes and Centipedes were originally harmless herbivores until Adam and Eve sinned. The Fall is believed to have corrupted and ruined the Natural world as well as corrupting and ruining human nature. But how can this be? How does the act of Adam and Eve eating a forbidden fruit have the power to change Nature? Is it something that God did? Others believe that Satan and demons corrupted and ruined the Natural world with violence, predation, venoms, parasites, hurricanes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, death BEFORE Adam and Eve sinned or BEFORE humans existed in the pre- human, prehistoric world. According to this belief, God's originally all good creation was ruined long before Adam and Eve's sin or long before humanity by Satan and demons. The world's originally pleasant climate could have been ruined by Satan and demons who transformed it into cruel extremes such as intense cold, intense heat, and floods and droughts. Satan and demons are cruel and thrive on inflicting suffering and death. The Devil of Zoroastrianism, Angra-mainyu/Ahriman specializes in inflicting physical torture and killing by creating diseases, snakes, scorpions, mosquitoes, intense cold and intense heat, and death. The Satan in Job is similar to Angra-mainyu/Ahriman in inflicting physical torture and killing. Elsewhere in the Bible, Satan is better known as liar, tempter, and deceiver and not as a physical torturer and killer. In my opinion, the Satan in Job is a lot scarier than a Satan who whispers in our ears to do forbidden things. A Satan who inflicts physical torture and killing as he did in Job is way more scary and evil. That's my opinion. Others may disagree. Let me go on to another blog before the computer cuts me off. Thank you for reading.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on December 10, 2013:
Forgive my delay in responding to you, mainly because your comment merits answers on quite a few topics. You stated, “Did God create Satan? Many Christians say yes.” True Christians believe God created everything – He has no equal and is self-existent. Therefore, any religion that considers the Devil an ‘uncreated equal’ to God is false. You rightfully stated, “Its believed that the angel known as Satan was originally created good and at some point turned evil.” However, this is a traditional teaching that is also not biblically correct. I’ve written on this in my hub entitled, “Is Lucifer the Devil?” https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/...
Regarding your question about evil and free will, yes – God gave angels and humans the ability to choose to rebel. It’s in the Bible. For this reason, it was predestined since the foundation of the world that Jesus Christ would die for us – let’s look at Rev 13:8 (Aramaic Bible in basic English) “And all the inhabitants of The Earth will worship it [the beast], those who are not written in The Book of Life of The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.” We know the Lamb was not slain before the foundation of the world, based on Heb 9:26 NAS “Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now ONCE AT THE CONSUMMATION OF THE AGES He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”
Since God is All Knowing, in that He knows the end from the beginning (Isa 46:10), there is a purpose for everything, even Satan’s existence. God is all about testing and rewarding based on the results of His test. On the other hand, Satan is used to tempt us with evil during the test. We see this in the Garden of Eden – God gave the test by putting the tree in the garden and giving the rule. God allowed Satan to tempt and thus, because of the CHOICE of Eve, then Adam, the consequences came. It was neither God’s fault nor Satan’s fault that man sinned. Jam 1:14 tells us, “But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.” On the Day of Judgment, there will be no excuse.
Read Rom 5:12-13 “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (For UNTIL the law sin was in the world: but SIN IS NOT IMPUTED WHEN THERE IS NO LAW.” The Law was added because of transgressions (Gal 3:19), and has since been completely fulfilled in the Savior, Jesus Christ (Rom 10:4). Let’s observe the following verses:
John 15:22 “If I had not come and spoken to them, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE SIN, but now they have no excuse for their sin.”
John 9:2-3 “And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?" Jesus answered, NEITHER HATH THIS MAN SINNED NOR HIS PARENTS: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.”
John 9:41 “Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, YOU WOULD HAVE NO SIN; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.”
If you consider the verses in the Bible that speak of whose names get blotted out of the Lamb’s Book of Life (Ex 32:33; Deut 29:20; Ps 9:5; Ps 69:28; Rev 3:5), it is obvious those names should never have started out in the Book to begin with…but they did, because God gives life to all men. I believe, based on Scripture, that Jesus IS the Savior of ALL MEN (1 Tim 4:10); however, only those who REFUSE this Salvation in Jesus Christ alone, will be blotted out of His Book.
Man does not have “free will”, but he does have “free choice” – Again, there are consequences for everything we choose to do. Look at Rom 6:16 “Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
Since all sin is to lead to death, without the mercy and grace given us by God through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, we would have been destroyed ages ago.
To expound on all these things, I invite you to read my hubs:
The Lamb’s Book of Life https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/...
And the Books Were Opened https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/And-The-B...
The Hardening of Pharaoh’s Heart https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-Harde...
You may think that the sentence of hell is unrighteous and cruel – God provided your Salvation from before the earth was formed. If you cannot embrace your Creator, if you should refuse the Salvation He provided for you, then is it not YOU who choose to be separated from God? What use are those who refuse their Creator and Savior for eternity? We were created in the very image of God Himself. While He had no beginning, Satan, the angels and mankind (our spirit) had/have a beginning but will ‘live’ forever, whether in heaven or hell. Some believe God will annihilate all evil so that they are simply destroyed, but the New Testament does not teach this. If it was fraudulently added to the Bible, then prove it was. If it was not, then we must accept it, that it is Truth.
The testimonies of those who claim to have experienced hell are not in the Bible, so take them or leave them. Does evil (demons, even Satan) inhabit humans, even animals? Yes. The Bible teaches about devils taking up residence in a man, even in animals (Legion entered the herd of swine – Mat 8; Mark 5). We were created as Temples, for in Jesus’ Temple dwells the fullness of the Deity in bodily form (Col 2:9). We are told our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:19). Well, if we don’t invite the Holy Spirit and rather invite unclean spirits, our Temple will be the dwelling of One or the other (Mat 12:44; Luke 11:25). You may enjoy my hub entitled, “Is Everyone Possessed?”
anonymous on December 07, 2013:
The origin or source of evil is unknown. Did God create Satan? Many Christians say yes. Zoroastrian religion calls the Devil Angra-mainyu/Ahriman who was the uncreated equal of Ahura Mazda or Ormazd the God of Zoroastrianism. Its believed that the angel known as Satan was originally created good and at some point turned evil. Did God create the ability of angels to rebel against Him? Is evil something that God knowingly and intentionally created? Or is evil something that God unknowingly and unintentionally created? Does evil just appear out of nowhere as in a vacuum? Free will is something that theologians say God gave to angels and to humans. But how much free will do angels really have and how much free will do humans really have? Humans do not have total free will. They have partial free will. Nature, nurture, genes, brain chemistry, body chemistry, and environmental conditions also dictates and determines human behavior whether bad or good. If Adam and Eve 's sin corrupted all future unborn humans then how can we have total free will? If Satan and demons corrupt people then how could we have total free will? Its unfair to allow Adam and Eve's sin to be transmitted to all future unborn humans and its unfair, cruel, and insane for God to curse and punish the entire creation with Natural evils such as diseases, violence, venoms, poisons, parasites, hurricanes, tsunamis, etc. How much free will do mosquitoes, centipedes, and cancer have? Who or what created Natural evils such as cancer, ebola, malaria, centipedes? Pain, suffering, death and extinctions for thousands to millions of years from Nature alone. Who or what is to blame for human evil and sin such as selfishness, violence, cruelty, crimes, and genocides? Is God to blame or are Satan and demons to blame? God inflicts physical torture and killing in nearly the entire Bible whereas Satan inflicted physical torture and killing only in the book of Job(which was still under God's permission.) "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil," says God. Isahaia chapter 45, verse 7, King James Bible. The Bible God is cruel. The belief in hell for the next life where countless people will be tortured in unimaginably horrifying ways is monstrous, sadistic, inhuman cruelty, evil, and horror. Fire, worms, and being mutilated and sliced by demons are among the tortures. Author Bill Wiese says in hell there is a sewer like stench and suffocation or inability to breathe. David J. Stewart says that victims in hell will be tortured by being buried alive in a claustrophobic, coffin like environment while burning in fire at the same time. Forever. Its monstrous criminal cruelty beyond imagining. The source of evil and suffering is unknown and remains the most disturbing and most horrible of mysteries. Satan, the Devil, and demonic possession is abundant in novels and movies such as Rosemary's Baby, The Exorcist, Beyond the Door, The Devil's Rain, and Exorcist 3-Legion based on the novel Legion. Authors Malachi Martin, Dennis Wheatley, and Jeffrey Burton Russell have written books about the Devil.
Dana Stamps from Wichita, Kansas on February 28, 2013:
Yes, God is our strength and our protection! God has many different ways that he purifies us. I've been through horrible suffering and trials within my life, but the Lord Jesus walked with every step of the way, even at times when I was very rebellious! God Bless you! O:)
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 28, 2013:
Yes, He certainly does, sister Dana. I read on Facebook yesterday a post that Satan has been defeated, implicating that Christians can claim power over him, as though we will never be tested! I have a hub called 'Trials and Temptations" that goes into God's divine design to allow Satan to do both ~ why? As with Job's case, to TRY our FAITH, and as Job came forth like gold tried in the fire seven times, so shall we, if we exercise the FAITH we claim we have and overcome! Job lost nearly everything, but because nothing came before His devotion to God, the LORD restored to him more than what he lost. Satan can only go as far as God permits him, when it comes to God's children, so we can rest in knowing any trial or temptation is ordained by God. We can also rest in the promise that He shall not give us more than we are able to bear...not in our own strength, but by His strength and the power FAITH brings, we shall overcome. God bless you, sis!
Dana Stamps from Wichita, Kansas on February 28, 2013:
Excellent article! Loved it! God has a plan!
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 22, 2013:
You mean, disagree about when Satan fell/falls from heaven? I will agree with what the Word says on that matter. God bless you, celafoe.
charlie from From Kingdom of God living on Planet earth in between the oceans on February 22, 2013:
I will just agree to disagree . and stop there it would be fruitless to go on.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 21, 2013:
celafoe, Slam all you want, but you are MISTAKEN. I suggest you re-read this hub carefully. The only contention you have, of which we disagree, is that you believe Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven. Never did I say Lucifer was Satan or that Satan was an angel. I agree that the cherub spoken of in Isa 14 is the king of Babylon; just as the cherub spoke of in Eze 28 is the king of Tyre. Against popular doctrines, neither of these cherubim are Satan himself, for they fight against each other in Ezekiel 29. I also agree that the angels who sinned in the days of Noah are locked up in Tartaroo awaiting their final judgment to the Lake of Fire. You won’t find ANYTHING in this hub that states otherwise.
To prove this, read my hub “Is Lucifer the Devil?”: https://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/h
Regarding WHEN Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven: Consider the Book of Revelation was written by John who was told in 1:19 “Write, therefore, whatever you have seen [past] and those things that are [present], and that are going to come to pass after these things [future].”
I provide the following scriptures to you to prove that Satan AND his angels were already cast down:
Rev 20:2 calls the Adversary, “the Dragon, the Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan”
Gen 3:1 tells us “Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” This is the ‘Serpent of Old’. He is on the earth.
Job 2:1-2 “Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.” Where was Satan again? Going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
In Luke 10:18 “And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.” This is past-tense.
Likewise, Isaiah 14 tells us that Lucifer (a cherub/angel) had fallen from heaven. You’ve gone into the fallen angels who sinned in the days of Noah by mating with the daughters of men, and their judgment to Tartaroo. How is this possible, if Satan and his angels have not yet been cast down from heaven? Do you think the angels fell, but Satan didn’t? Read Rev 12 again. Vs. 4 “And his [the Dragon’s] tail swept away a third of the stars and flung them to the earth.” Vs. 9 “And the great Dragon was thrown down, the Serpent of Old who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.”
charlie from From Kingdom of God living on Planet earth in between the oceans on February 21, 2013:
well written and totally un scriptural!! False church teaching promoted and brought to the churches by schoffield a scoundrel who brought several false teachings to them.
satan was never an angel. he was created by God as satan.
The scripture used to say he was cast down, is yet to come (rev)
the scripture that you use to say he was lucifer is referring to nebuchadnezzar. it says the MAN--satan was never a man
all angels that sinned are in chains in hell waiting for the judgement
2 Peter 2:4-5
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
12 "How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 "Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
'Is this the " man " who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?'
18 "All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave
Like an abominable branch,
Like the garment of those who are slain,
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial,
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people.
sorry but this study is not of God - it cannot pass the scriptural truth test
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on January 28, 2013:
Hi celefoe! I would say you're definitely on the right track, especially when it comes to being tempted to do evil (something against what God wills). However, God does indeed test us (trial). We have a balance of both and it is indeed to test our faith, when it's all said and done. He who endures till the end will be saved (Mat 24:13).
I appreciate the compliment, that yes, I certainly studied this subject on Satan and his purpose. I also studied the difference between trials (by God) and temptations (by Satan) you may enjoy reading! https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Trials-Te...
Thank you very much for your very insightful comment and God bless you!
charlie from From Kingdom of God living on Planet earth in between the oceans on January 28, 2013:
I see you have been studying. I think tho that to this I would add a bit from James.
James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.
You see the purpose of satan is to tempt us then we have to make a choice, to continue in the sin we see we are guilty of or take it to the cross of forgiveness and be cleansed. God cannot tempt so he made satan to be the one to test our Christianity. He tempts us, we choose who to follow. So satan is an employee of God. And he has NO authority over us unless we give to him by allowing our exposed sins to remain-- then he takes over with our permission. The devil did NOT make me do it, It was my choice. See even the devil though he is evil was created for our good. Remember he even tempted Jesus
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on January 21, 2013:
With an attitude like that, I can't imagine why any woman wouldn't stay with you, o godly man. Hosea 4:14.
Absolutely The Truth on January 21, 2013:
well i can tell you this, he certainly created so many low life loser women that are out there today. especially the ones that have to cheat on their men, and just can't stay committed too only one man anymore.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on November 25, 2012:
In this, we also agree, DT. I have a hub entitled "And the Books Were Opened", which states, "While having our names in the Book of Life is the cherished hope of all who stand before the Lord, the Bible says there will be those whose names are not written in it (Rev 13:8,17:8; 20:15). Based on scripture, I believe everyone’s names start out in the Book of Life due to predestination of salvation through Christ Jesus, who died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). "
1 Tim 4:10 confirms "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL men, especially of believers."
Yes, we must choose. While we don't have 'free will' we have to choose whom we will serve.
Rom 6:16 "Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?"
Joshua 24:15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
I don't know much about the creation of the world, except that the earth already existed before Day 1 of the creation account (Gen 1:2). I don't see anything in the Bible about what life may have existed on that earth before it became "without form and darkness was upon the face of the deep". We do know, as far as mankind is concerned, that Adam was the first man created, and he lived since Day 6 of the biblical creation account.
DT on November 25, 2012:
Again, I believe we must choose whether we are to come back to him or not.
You should do an article on old earth creationism.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on November 15, 2012:
Hello, DT - I'm glad you finally found an article you like...
Isa 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no God."
"To redeem: by payment of value assessed, of consecrated things, by the original owner." YHWH is the original Owner of all mankind and shed His blood as the ransom (padah - price) to redeem (gaal - buy back) those who are His.
DT on November 15, 2012:
I disagree with the notion that God created a scenario in which he would have to redeem mankind back to himself. I believe that this misses the point of Jesus's sacrifice.
I believe that God gave Adam and Eve the opportunity to come back to him. However, he sent Jesus to ultimately rescue us from the evil one (John 12:31).
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on November 12, 2012:
There's so much to learn, it's NEVER boring, amen, brother Artin2010. It's such a blessing to see you again. Thank you for the compliment and I'm glad you enjoyed this piece. God bless you always.
Art Wartenbe from Northwestern Florida, Gulfcoast on November 12, 2012:
Hi JudahsDaughter, I know, really long time! Really good to see you are still learning/yearning to know all things concerning God, =-) Schooling, we can not put a price on, no doubt,
Awesome hub! Blessings fellow Believer
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on October 14, 2012:
I can understand how you feel, Dream54. I have not 'proven' that God is evil or a liar, but that He created His Adversary and the evil and lies that oppose Him.
Believe it or not, God DID show Himself to the world two thousand years ago - "He came unto His own and His own received Him not" (John 1:11). Agree with His Almighty ways or not; it isn't for us to thoroughly understand right now. It's a tough 'pill' to swallow, and in that, I agree with you. Why did He create something that would be the complete opposite of Him and burden us with choosing, when ultimately, He allows pain and suffering, even for those who worship Him. That, I don't think I will ever understand, not in this life, anyhow.
There appears to be a 'clue' in Mat 23:34-36 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon YOU may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."
I also look at passages such as 2 Thes 2:10-12 "because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."
Dream54 on October 14, 2012:
Ok.. So basically you have just proven god is evil. Great. You have also proven that god is also a liar. Being economical with the truth is the same thing as lying. I wouldn't want to worship someone like him.
The moral of the story is:
God created for his own ego and entertainment. It's not enough to say, 'oh but he does let you choose'. That in itself makes no sense, for after all he is the omniscient and omnipotent one who knew full well everything that you would do even before he created you. I think I would have rather not ever been made to exist than have to spend eternity in hell thank you very much.
Cut out this mystical crap. Come and show yourself to the world physically. If he really existed, and if he really is benevolent, he would have shown himself to the world a thousand years ago before all the bloodshed that went on in his name.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on September 27, 2012:
Thank you, L7. I say, regarding the Book of Enoch, to take what aligns with the Bible to heart, to ponder the things that fill in some of the blanks the Bible doesn't answer, and set aside anything that appears not to align with the Bible. I say 'appears' because - as with the book's use of 'Lord of Spirits' and 'Holy One(s)', etc. we do not have absolute understanding of those titles and to whom they refer...
The Book of Enoch does tell us where demons come from (what they are). The Bible does not say angels became demons or that an angel became Satan. These are doctrines of men that the masses blindly accept and believe, thus they propagate them throughout the generations. I have a hub on this called "Is Lucifer the Devil?" https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/...
I do utilize 1 Kings 22:19-22 in my hub "Is Everyone Possessed?" (just a catchy title), which shows how intricately the spirit realm is connected/involved in this earthly realm. This passage clearly states that those lying spirits spoke through the mouths of those prophets...pretty interesting.
I very much enjoy your comments, L7. God bless you and thank your for your readership.
L7 on September 27, 2012:
This was definitely, how did u say, strong meat. Tough to chew and swallow I'm sure for many if not most that came across it. Accept for the Book of Enoch thing I stand in agreement here. You have so many hubs to read, I may have missed if you mentioned it. But in 1 Kings 22:19-22 all the hosts of HEAVEN were standing around the LORD and one said that he will go and be a" lying spirit in the mouths of the of the prophets." God then told him to go and do it and that he will succeed.
Another great post from you my sistren in Christ. :)
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on September 18, 2012:
Hi Allen Christopher! Whenever I read links of arguments by people that don't know the Word well enough to know better (or maybe they do, but they're in rebellion), I could write hub after hub refuting their theological 'arguments'. I choose my battles by the leading of the Holy Spirit. If you have specific questions, I would be happy to do my best to contribute to the answers you seek.
I did want to thank you very, very much for your wonderful 'fan mail' I read this morning. It truly made my day, for I labor not for myself, but to bless those who are willing to learn and accept what the Holy Spirit confirms to them is Truth. This topic is one many probably cannot accept, but it surely does give us peace in understanding and can greatly affect our ability to have faith in the LORD.
You can email me any time: firstname.lastname@example.org. I look forward to your questions and pray that I continue to be an inspiration to you. Thank you again, and God bless you.
Allen Christopher on September 18, 2012:
This article restored my hope, though I really need to cross check the truth about the book of Enoch you referred to explain some of the issues. I've stopped believing in God before but I tried to regain my faith back. I wish you could help me.
I think Vineeth just copy pasted the arguments from this site.
Do you have any article that counters these arguments that's thrown by the site? Can I really trust the book of Enoch? I really wish you could help me, no one else can. I've lost my faith because of the problem of evil, I felt so empty and betrayed. But like I said, this article gave me a new hope. I would be so delighted if we could have a conversation personally.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 17, 2012:
First of all, a "cherub day star" did not cause the revolt in heaven. You are still holding to man-made doctrine, not Biblical doctrine. Of course the Dragon and his angels were in heaven prior to the war. The fact is, they are not still in heaven, as though the war hasn’t even begun. You’re claiming a “rebellion and casting to earth of angels” is a different even than “the permanent casting out of Satan and 1/3rd of angels in Rev12:8”. Totally unbiblical. You can read all about the war as follows:
Let’s start out with Rev 12:1-6 “A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red DRAGON [identified as the serpent of old, the Devil and Satan in vs. 9] having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And HIS TAIL swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to THE EARTH. And the DRAGON stood before the woman who was ABOUT to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. And she GAVE BIRTH [past-tense] to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. THEN, the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.”
The Woman has a crown of twelve stars – this is Israel, the twelve tribes of Jacob. This takes us all the way back to Isaac, Jacob and Esau. This Woman was in existence, AFTER the Dragon and his angels were cast out of heaven. The ‘Serpent of Old’ also indicates WHEN the Dragon was cast out of heaven (prior to the Garden of Eden). It was indeed AFTER the Woman gave birth Satan, who was already cast out of heaven, crouched at her feet, ready to devour her child, Jesus Christ. Herod was the first one to try to kill Jesus when he sent his soldiers to kill all the male children, age 2 and younger in the region Jesus was born.
Not all who are of the ‘Woman’ are spared from Satan’s wrath. We read in 12:17, “So the Dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with THE REST of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.” What about the Inquisition and the Crusades? Christians being martyred because they refused to worship the Pope. What about the holocaust? Again, Jews being killed because they were Jews (the twelve stars).
And what about Job? Was Satan not accusing him before God? Yes, the accuser of the brethren had been thrown down and he doesn’t cease to accuse God’s children day and night until he is bound in Hades at the beginning of the millennial reign of Christ, which is yet a future event (Rev 20:2).
I refuse to keep this debate going, JasonNeo. Your arguments are built on sand.
JasonNeo on June 17, 2012:
Isiah 66:1,reveal the omnipotent nature of God's Holy Spirit.It's foolish to base yourself on such unreasonable conclusions.So understand that fallen state of angels by which they are cast to earth is one event that happened long before the 6 day recreation event of genesis.The permanent casting out of cherub-day star & the 1/3 rd of angels that are with him is yet to take place,which will happen during 7 year great delusion and tribulation period after the rapture of the church.This is what is recorded in Rev12:7 onwards.God bless you to see the reality.
JasonNeo on June 17, 2012:
Kindly understand the difference between rebellion and casting to earth of angels which is recorded in Rev12:4,and the permanent casting out of Satan and 1/3rd of angels in Rev12:8, which follows the war in Rev12:7. This permanent casting out of satan and his "fallen" angels is an event yet to take place,which will happen during the 7 year great delusion and tribulation period.God bless you
JasonNeo on June 17, 2012:
You still fail to understand.When original sin of pride overtook the cherub-day star,he rebelled along with 1/3 rd angels.This is what is recorder in Rev12:4,Isiah14,Ezekiel28 etc.That is why Rev12:10-12 states that satan and other 1/3rd angels in the fallen state were in heaven before the war of Rev12:7.Satan accused our bretheren-fellow believers in heaven in the presence of God according to Rev12:10.Therefore see how foolish your statement that this war of Rev12:7 ensued before the times of Adam and Eve.I only point out the errors in your assumptions and opinions.Only God can lead you to reality.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 17, 2012:
You haven't answered any of my questions to challenge your theology, JasonNeo. Ad hominem is typically the response when one has no valid argument. Now, you're claiming two falls - one before the earth was covered with water as stated in Gen 1:2 and one yet to come? Who must humble themselves again?
JasonNeo on June 17, 2012:
Also Rev12:4 is the old event of original iniquity,were angels that followed the cherub-day star were cast to the pre 6 day re-creational earth.This cast down to earth is what made earth formless,void and covered with water about 6000 years ago.The earth as you know is millions of years old(old earth-gap creation taught from very ancient old testament times onwards).And God created universe perfectly in genesis1:1.
This is further consolidated by verses 12:10-12.Hope you humble yourself before God's word.
JasonNeo on June 17, 2012:
You said this-Rev 12:1-6 tells us that Satan had already been cast down (4) before he crowched awaiting the Woman (Israel) to give birth. Vs 5 tells us the child was born and snatched up to God (Jesus). Vs 6 speaks of the Woman being nourished for 1260 days. Rev 12:7-14 repeats what happened in 1-6 with greater detail. Confirm vs.14 the Woman is being nourished for 1260 days.
I thought we were having a rational and reasonable discussion,but you seem to take it as an excuse for your "irrationality".The Rev12:7 is said to happen after Rev12:6,because that is the only logical sequence which is further consolidated by Rev12:10-12.Far from mere prejudice and narrow mindedness,let God set you free to see his reality and the vastness of his love.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 17, 2012:
Okay, JasonNeo - let's have a rational discussion - alright with you? How many times does Satan fall from heaven? Once? Twice? Three times?
Rev 12:9 tells us that Satan is 'the Serpent of Old', so we know this is the same Satan that tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, having embodied a created serpent that was cursed to its belly from that day forward.
Rev 12:1-6 tells us that Satan had already been cast down (4) before he crowched awaiting the Woman (Israel) to give birth. Vs 5 tells us the child was born and snatched up to God (Jesus). Vs 6 speaks of the Woman being nourished for 1260 days. Rev 12:7-14 repeats what happened in 1-6 with greater detail. Confirm vs.14 the Woman is being nourished for 1260 days.
We can go back to Job and understand that the sons of God (fallen angels) and Satan came to present themselves before the LORD. "Heaven is His throne and the earth is His footstool" (Is 66:1), so they could stand at the foot of God's throne, while being on the earth. Job 1:7 and 2:2 state, "The LORD said to Satan, 'Where have you come from?' Then Satan answered the LORD and said, 'From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
If I were to even consider your 'statement of fact', which is really an opinion only, Satan was not fallen when he tempted Adam and Eve as the Serpent of Old, nor were his angels and he fallen when he had been 'roaming to and fro on the earth'.
What about this one? Luke 10:17-18 "The seventy returned with joy, saying, 'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.' And He said unto them, 'I beheld [saw] Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Jesus said this even before He was crucified.
Then, of course, we have the cherubim of Isa 14 and Ez 28 - fallen. Oh, but you say they haven't fallen yet...Do you see how unscriptural your point appears to be? Thus, I conclude with your own words, "So donot be discouraged,because anybody can go wrong.Consider this as an oppurtunity from God to lead you to truth and reality."
JasonNeo on June 16, 2012:
Revelation 12:7 is indeed an event yet to take place.The Rev12 chapter describe events that happened over a very large time span.But from Rev12:6 it's about great tribulation,same as what is described in Mathew 24.After Antichrist break his covenent with Israel and place the awful horror in the rebuilt temple,then only war in heaven ensues & satan & his angels are cast out.Satan as of now is accusing about us in heaven,just as he did in the times of Job,and as revealed in new testament.So donot be discouraged,because anybody can go wrong.Consider this as an oppurtunity from God to lead you to truth and reality.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 15, 2012:
lupandiomo, in reading your comment there were both wheat and tares. It is the tares I will be addressing in my response.
You said, "on the question of whether God tries or tempts anyone you were able to see directly from the scriptures that he actually does not and you even quoted and cited a scripture to support that stand."
The scripture I quoted was James 1:13. For the sake of understanding the context, I will quote vs. 12-13: "Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial [3986 - temptation, test]; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted [3985 - in the evil sense], "I am being tempted [3985 - in the evil sense] by God"; for God cannot be tempted by EVIL, and He Himself does not tempt [3985 - in the evil sense] anyone."
The definitions used here for 'tempted' in both Jam 1:12 and 13 is shown below (taken from the Strongs). It is used in the positive and negative sense. The context of Jam 1:13 sets which usage is applied:
3985 (peiraz?) means "tempt" ("negative sense") in: Mt 16:1, 19:3, 22:18,35; Mk 8:11, 10:2, 12:15; Lk 11:16, 20:33; Jn 8:6; Js 1:13,14.
3985/3986 (peiraz?) however is used of positive tests in: Mt 4:11; Lk 22:28; 1 Cor 10:13; Js 1:12.
Let's look at the positive side of testing:
Job 23:10 “But He knoweth the way that I take: when He hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.”
Gen 22:1 “And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt [test] Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.”
Heb 11:17 “By faith Abraham, when he was tried [tested], offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.”
You are welcome to read my hub link “Trials and Temptations” provided the section of this hub “Evil in the Presence of God?” for an in-depth study.
You said, “I am not saying there are instances when quoting scriptures is OK and other instances when doing so isn't, but rather that we should always strive to attain the correct and accurate meaning of Bible passages.” You insinuated I was double-tongued and obviously, I was not. The clarification I just gave you proves I “strive to attain the correct and accurate meaning of Bible passages.” You are therefore right in saying, “the message that the Bible ought to be read and understood in its entirety, taking into account the context, first and foremost, and, the overall tenure of the Bible.”
Next, you go into a whole schpeal about the Sabbath and insinuate the ‘Sabbath rest’ is that of the millennial reign of Christ. That is not scriptural either. Yes, Jesus IS the LORD of the Sabbath. The ‘Light’ of understanding is that our rest is found in Him alone. Regarding the alleged ‘breaking of the Sabbath’ accusations the Truth is, followers of Christ are a royal priesthood, a holy nation (1 Pet 2:9). With the correct understanding, there is no appearance of contradiction. Thus, we agree when you said, “So his disciples had not broken the Sabbath by plucking wheat and eating it.” You are welcome to come and read my hub on the subject, entitled “Remember the Sabbath Day: Saturday, Sunday or Everyday?” https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/...
You said, “Going forward, your use of Proverbs 16:4 and Isa 45:7 should therefore be interpreted in the light of other scriptures to see what exactly they mean.” What are those other scriptures? I take these scriptures literally, for what they clearly state and the context is supported all throughout Scripture. You asked me about cross-reference tools – I use biblos.com, which provides far more tools than just cross-references.
What you said these passages do NOT mean in the next part of your comment is not scriptural. You actually contradicted yourself by concluding with, “After all, He's the almighty, creator of all the universe and all the things in it, does He not have the right to determine what is good and bad for us? Surely he [Satan] deserves it and is preserved for the day of destruction. This is very true in the case of the sinning angels of Noah's day. That's their definite destiny. They can't escape.”
I’m in agreement with you from then on, right up until you stated, “As for whether angels were allowed back in heaven after they sinned, my answer will point to 2Pet2:4.Yes they were allowed back, we know this because the account of flood clearly says that the angels on seeing the deluge arrive dematerialized their human bodies and forced to abandon their wives and superhuman breed of children and flee back into heaven. However, when they arrived back in heaven they were not allowed to occupy their original forsaken glorious position there.” Totally hogwash. The Bible rather declares the angels who sinned with the daughters of men, left their abode to do so, and were judged to Tartaroo, while their offspring, the Nephilim, were destroyed in the flood with the rest of wicked mankind.
lupandiomo from nairobi,kenya. on June 15, 2012:
Thanx a lot for your quick response to my comment.I must say I am very delighted to see how seriously you take the contributions from your hub readers.My case is a good example because you did respond less than 24 hours of its being posted and this certainly shows that you value everyone.That's the spirit.Now,though,we have a strong meat discussion to address.You will agree with me that when it comes to understanding the Bible,different opinions always pop up due to the fact that different religious teachings exist(what you call traditional teachings) as opposed to what the Bible actually teaches.Not surprisingly then,all religions firmly believe what they hold to be true as the accurate interpretation of Scriptures.This works difficulties to those who sincerely search for or yearn to know the truth about what the Bible really teaches.As is apparent in the conversation you had with Vineeth,you can see that you both stood your ground in what each one of you held as true.To be fair to you JD,your works reflected a high level of research effort that resulted in your hubs discovering some very beautiful gems contained in the Bible.For instance, on the question of whether God tries or tempts anyone you were able to see directly from the scriptures that he actually does not and you even quoted and cited a scripture to support that stand. That was awesome.However,applying the same principle of referencing from the scriptures you went far off the tangent as far as achieving accurate interpretation of what the scriptures involve on some,if not all of your subsequent points made.I am not saying there are instances when quoting scriptures is OK and other instances when doing so isn't, but rather that we should always strive to attain the correct and accurate meaning of Bible passages.This is the greatest challenge to anyone who yearns to know what the Bible is all about.It was a problem even back in the days when the Bible, as a whole, was still being written. For example,when questioned about why his disciples were plucking ears of grain and eating it on a Sabbath on their way out to Galilee,Jesus referred the Pharisees back to two different biblical accounts that apparently seemed to contradict each other from a human standpoint- regarding the issue of loaves of presentation at the temple and who was meant to eat it.To help them see how scriptures ought to be understood,Jesus,first of all, showed them the part of Scriptures with which they were familiar by quoting 1 Sam21:3-6 to show them how David and his men ate show bread even though only priests were meant to partake of the replaced loaves of presentation at the temple..He then took them to the portion that upheld the latter point raised in the sentence above by quoting Lev24:9.The great teacher then concluded his persuasive explanation to the cynical Jews by quoting Hosea6:6( please read Mat 12:4-7).The issue at hand here was that of mercy and not sacrifice being of more importance to God.The Pharisees who always delighted in making Jesus' life difficult were bent to impute any false accusations against his disciples.In fact their whole interpretation of the holy Scriptures was found to be wanting and Jesus used that opportunity to correct their harsh interpretation of what constituted work on a Sabbath.Their strict interpretation of Sabbath made the day meant for "rest"look burdensome.Jesus had to remind them that he was the Lord of the Sabbath, pointing forward to the forthcoming paradise over which he shall reign.So his disciples had not broken the Sabbath by plucking wheat and eating it.Besides,they were on a preaching tour to Galilee.Although you may wonder how this even relates to the topic of our discussion in the first place and, granted,just because David and his men ate the show bread does not mean that now an avenue was opened for the common non priestly class Israelite to enjoy themselves with the same and not incur God's wrath based on the provisions of the Law covenant, but it does at least convey the message that the Bible ought to be read and understood in its entirety,taking into account the context, first and foremost, and, the overall tenure of the Bible.There are several Bible writers who held to this pattern,the apostle Paul,being one of them.This is based upon the belief that the Bible-the 66 collections of books and epistles -constitute one book,penned by 40 men under one author,God. As such,its message should be harmonious all through from Genesis to Revelation.Going forward,your use of Proverbs 16:4 and Isa45:7 should therefore be interpreted in the light of other scriptures to see what exactly they mean.The Bible I use has a powerful tool for that purpose namely the cross reference tool, I'm not sure if yours does but hope that you get one that has the tool.Afterward, you'll see that when Proverbs speak as though God created the evil for his own purpose,the book actually means that God is not the one responsible for causing that evil in them by creating them for that purpose as you passionately portrayed about Lucifer or Satan for that matter,but rather he only allows them to exist that way having themselves chosen to be that way(because of some wonderful gift God gave us at creation ,namely free will, and he will never deny us that right,although this freedom needs to be exercised within the lawful bounds that God himself instituted in the beginning.After all, he's the almighty, creator of all the universe and all the things in it, does he not have the right to determine what is good and bad for us?Surely he deserves it) and preserved for the day of destruction.This is very true in the case of the sinning angels of Noah's day.That's their definite destiny.They can't escape.For humans, on the other hand, whereas God gives wicked people over to lustful desires and all sorts of unnatural stuff due to their stubbornness,God's mercy is extended them over the prolonged period of end times because God is not keen on destroying anyone but wants everyone to be saved as the apostle Peter's letters reveal.Right?Pay attention particularly to 2Pet2:9.Those unrighteous ones are those who have chosen to continue being obstinate and remain in their sinful natures even after being taught the truth of the Bible and shown loving kindness,for that matter, God righteously judges them fit for destruction.If God who can read perfectly well the hearts of humankind and judges them unfit for his grace,he knows how to preserve them in their obstinacy up until he chooses to bring destruction upon the wicked in line with his righteous standards.By the same standards he will judge the righteous worthy of life everlasting.The obedient angels have a lot to learn from this human experience of disobedience and God's great wisdom to deal with it once for all time. As for whether angels were allowed back in heaven after they sinned,my answer will point to 2Pet2:4.Yes they were allowed back, we know this because the account of flood clearly says that the angels on seeing the deluge arrive dematerialized their human bodies and forced to abandon their wives and superhuman breed of children and flee back into heaven.However,when they arrived back in heaven they were not allowed to occupy their original forsaken glorious position there, but rather kept in tartarus, dark condition until their destruction together with their leader at the end of the millennial rule by Christ.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 14, 2012:
Hi allpurposeguru - yes, I'd say there's a line drawn between Veneeth's and my doctrines. I don't see Vineeth using scripture in a literal sense enough to validate the claims he (I'm assuming Vineeth is a he) is making.
This hub clearly lays out scripture, some of which people cannot accept because it's not readily taught in the churches. Traditional teachings are accepted, then engrained, when people don't study for themselves, really read what the Bible says. Shockingly, it's those who DO study and read the Bible that find out some of the concepts and traditional teachings are simply not true. How do you think people come out of cults, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Islam, Catholicism, etc.? They all read the Bible.
Book of Enoch or not, no one can use the Bible to prove Lucifer is Satan or that a perfectly beautiful Archangel became the Devil. No one can prove fallen angels became demons either. No one can prove God did not create evil. All these things are personally held beliefs because people simply don't want to change what they've accepted as truth. I'm here to challenge false doctrines and adversity will, no doubt, be the result. I embrace it, as far as God wills me to, for the sake of the Truth.
I appreciate you and love you in the LORD, brother.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 14, 2012:
lupandiomo, you said, "God is Holy and separated from sin as such would NEVER create anyone EVIL." The Bible says in Prov 16:4 "The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked [7563 rasa – wicked or criminal] for the day of evil" and in Isa 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil [7451 – ra = bad, evil]: I the LORD do all these things.”
You said, "Satan became evil on his own volition because he used his free will". Jesus said in John 8:44, "he was a murderer from the beginning."
You said, "As for the chronological order of events that led to the fall of Satan from heaven, we need to realize that it came much much later after Jesus had ascended to the Father and received kingdom power many many centuries after offering himself in sacrifice." So, are you saying Satan came down from heaven, possessed the serpent and tempted Adam and Eve and was allowed to live in heaven on his days off? Are you saying the angels who sinned in the days of Noah did the same thing? Just hung out here for awhile and returned to their heavenly abode? Jude 1:6 states, "And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day." You contradict yourself when you admit Satan misled the angels during Noah's flood (actually, before Noah's flood, which caused the judgment of the flood), but didn't fall from heaven until after Jesus ascended.
Receive it or not, but Jesus did not receive authority. As the Son of Man, the last Adam, He received authority - meaning He won it back for mankind. He's always had all authority for He is God. John 10:18 “No one has taken it [My life] away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.”
I am just marveling at the indoctrination given to those who claim to follow Christ, but don't take His Word for what it actually says. Rather, we'll say Satan can possess two cherubim that fight against each other (Vineeth), or believe God would never create evil, or that Satan wasn't cast out of heaven until after Christ ascended to heaven - or maybe he's not yet cast out... Totally unscriptural claims.
David Guion from North Carolina on June 14, 2012:
JD, again you have challenged traditional teachings in a well-reasoned, well-written hub. I will have to read it more than once to know if I agree with your reasoning.
I suspect that most often when two Christians disagree about Scripture (and neither one of them argues from ignorance), one particular word or phrase stands out to one and another particular word or phrase stands out to the other.
The conversation between you and Vineeth is partly enlightening and partly disturbing. After all, Christians shouldn't call each other names, and passionate discussions nearly always cross that line.
As long as we're inhabiting bodies made of matter and breathing air, we can only know in part. I don't have a Bible within easy reach at the moment, but Paul certainly included himself when he wrote that now we see only a reflection in an inferior mirror. We will see face to face later, when, I suppose, our new bodies will be made out of spirit.
Meanwhile, it's news to me that Enoch was ever considered part of Scripture. Perhaps it's news also to all the commentaries I have seen that are so embarrassed that Jude quoted Enoch. You've given me lots to chew on and study.
lupandiomo from nairobi,kenya. on June 14, 2012:
Pretty much confusing.Contains some elements of truth in it but a whole lot of guesswork for the most part.God is Holy and separated from sin as such would NEVER create anyone EVIL.Satan became evil on his own volition because he used his free will badly so was Adam and Eve .As for the chronological order of events that led to the fall of Satan from heaven, we need to realize that it came much much later after Jesus had ascended to the Father and received kingdom power many many centuries after offering himself in sacrifice.Now though, we live after that dramatic fall has already occurred and Satan did not like it at all because he knew that would mark the beginning of the end to his dominion over mankind and a portion,a large number, in fact of angels he had misled during Noah's flood.The Bible is a story that was related in episodes and the book of Revelation was the last episode of that long running drama for both obedient mankind and angels to observe God's unfolding purpose taking place.Its story relates what would take place shortly after Jesus received authority and casting out Satan together with his demons from the heavens and subsequent conditions that would mark the last days,which days we observe in the world today.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 14, 2012:
Well, obviously Vineeth, you're not the only one who's studied the calendars. Did you even look at the link I provided? So who am I to believe, you or another? You are just debating whether you think Enoch should be considered scriptural canon - why do think it was included in scripture for 500 years and is still in the Ethiopian bibles to this day? Why are portions of it found in the Dead Sea Scrolls? Were they all idiots? Are they? Take it up with them.
I show the alignment of Enoch with the Bible in my hub "The Origin of the Nephilim". Glean from Enoch what you will or cast it out. I glean from it, when it most definitely aligns with the Bible. It does have things that are not mentioned in the Bible, but it says even in the Bible that if everything Jesus had said and done were recorded, there wouldn't be enough books to contain them (John 21:25). Why limit the prophets of God?
Vineeth on June 13, 2012:
I have studied both calendars & explained the difference in the simplest possible way.Yet,you ignore that & ask me study?That is very rude.
Now that you accept you don't know about the calendar,please consider the contradictions of book of Enoch,that i posted to you,which you deleted.(i will repost it ,if you can take up the challenge).
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 13, 2012:
Vineeth, Jer 30:6 might be what you are talking about: "Ask now, and see If a male can give birth. Why do I see every man With his hands on his loins, as a woman in childbirth? And why have all faces turned pale?" This has no cross-reference to Revelation. Yes, Revelation speaks of a great time span alright - from the birth of Israel (Jacob), to the birth, death, resurrection and ascention of Christ, to the provision given Israel during the Great Tribulation.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 13, 2012:
Regarding the 'Jubilee' calendar, it only supports Enoch's authenticity! "The Enoch Calender is shown in the 1st Book Of Enoch and was given by the Angel Uriel (YahEl), and is the original Priestly Calendar that was used in the Torah. The Enoch Calendar is a 12-Month Solar Calendar having 364 Days Only, and it was used by the antediluvian patriarchs and by Noah, Abraham, and Jacob. It was taught to Moses by the Angel Yah and it continued in effect through the 2nd Temple period under Ezra and Nehemiah. It was the official Hebrew calendar until the 2nd Century BCE, when King Antiochus IV ended the use of the Enoch Calendar and forced the Hebrew people to observe the Lunar Calendar." Read up on it here: http://enochcalendars.webs.com/
Vineeth on June 13, 2012:
Yes,i agree.But israeli jewish men placing their hands on stomach and limping like a pregnant woman is said in the scriptures.I don't remember the exact verse now.I will show it to you as soon as i get it.This chapter 12 deals with a great time span,i am not sure if you understand it fully.
Vineeth on June 13, 2012:
About book of Enoch ,i know this-there is a calendar in book of enoch called jubilee calendar with 364 days,with cycles of 2 ,30 day months and a 31 day month for 4 seasons of the year.This was not the calendar that Noah used during flood,which was a 30 day calendar at least for five months-from 17 th of 2nd month to 17th of 7th month.We know Enoch died before Noah,then how come this Jubilee calendar in the book of Enoch?
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 13, 2012:
That is not the correct interpretation, Vineeth. Let the reader understand: Rev 12:1-6
"A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child; and SHE cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon [Satan] having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the EARTH. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.
And she gave birth to a son [Jesus], a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne [ascension]. Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days [post-ascension - Tribuation]."
If the Woman is Israel and she is nourished for 1260 days away from the Dragon who tries to destroy her, how can you say, "the israeli men will limp like a pregnant woman"? You have, once again, given in to indoctrination, rather than sound doctrine, Vineeth.
Vineeth on June 13, 2012:
The women about to give birth is the nation of Israel in the great tribulation period.Israel will be severely persecuted by antichrist after he places the awful horror in the rebuilt 3rd temple in Jerusalem.Israelis will escape to a safe place(some consider this to be Petra in Jordan) bya plane or some other flying vehicle.Just before the coming of Jesus along with 10000s of saints to defeat antichrist & his forces,the israeli men will limp like a pregnant woman.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 13, 2012:
Vineeth, you are forgiven, of course! How can you say Satan and his angels have not yet been cast out of heaven? Have you read the entirety of Rev 12? It speaks of the Woman (the Jews) clothed with the sun with a crown of twelve stars (the 12 tribes of Israel), who was about to give birth to the man child (Jesus) and the Dragon (Satan) crouched at her feet waiting to devour her child (the crucifixion)...that has certainly already taken place and so has the fall of Satan and his angels. Thus, why Satan was in the garden of Eden and his angels sinned with the daughters of men, creating giants, judged to Tartaroo - the remainder out and about appearing to those such as Joseph Smith and Muhammad to start false religions.
Jesus told John to write about what he has seen (past), what he was seeing for the present and that of the future. The Book of Revelation contains all three. Satan accuses the saints before God, yes, but read the story of Job. In 2:1 the fallen angels (sons of God) came to present themselves before the LORD and Satan came with them also. Heaven is God's Throne and the EARTH is His footstool. They were on the earth, accusing Job before God, just as they do to God's children today.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 13, 2012:
Vineeth, The Book of Enoch was indeed included in scriptures 300 years before Christ and 200 years after. It was there while Jesus walked the earth. It's included in the Dead Sea Scrolls, too. Ethiopians still have it as part of canon, despite the council of Laodicea removing it. It's known that the council of Laodicea wanted to remove Revelation, too! Can you imagine if we didn't have the book of Revelation? Our Bible not only speaks of Enoch, but the book of Jasher, which was also removed. Men being used by the Adversary, have tried to keep people from knowing heavenly things, especially who Jesus Christ IS.
Vineeth on June 13, 2012:
Satan is cast out of heaven along with his fellow angels in revelation 12:7,which is an event yet to take place.So satan and the angels that fell into sin along with him are not yet thrown out of heaven.That is why Jesus mediate for us,while satan is still in heaven ,accusing saints.Because of Jesus only we have hope.God bless you.
Vineeth on June 12, 2012:
I am from India,probably we have a 12 hour difference.Sorry if i offended you with my comments,but i hope you will adress my questions.God bless you ,sister.
Vineeth on June 12, 2012:
If so why didn't isrealites/jews before christ didn't include the book of Enoch in their septiguaint/tanakh?Why where they unaware of the book of Enoch?
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 12, 2012:
Vineeth, I have been at work since you posted your six comments. I have the 'comments must be approved before they appear' setting and for this reason, frankly. I will allow your comments until tomorrow, because we don't need lengthy chapters of Enoch posted here (though very interesting) or frustrated accusatory statements toward me that are unfounded.
Why would God create Satan and condemn him to the Lake of Fire? Ask God. Do food packagers not expect we will utilize the food and discard the trash, after the container has fulfilled its purpose?
Now, regarding Lucifer being Satan - I just commented to you on my hub "Is Lucifer the Devil?". Isaiah 14:12 is speaking of Lucifer, the king of Babylon. Ezekiel 28:14 is speaking of the king of Tyre. These kings battle against each other in Ezekiel 29. What you're implying is that Satan and his fallen angels are the same entity - really? Then why the three beasts of Revelation (Rev 16:13), and why is it the 'beast' (Antichrist - aka Lucifer) and false prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire at the beginning of the millenial reign (Rev 19:20), while Satan is bound in the bottomless pit (Hades) to be released at the end of the thousand years before he joins the beast and false prophet in the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:7-10)? You have no sound, biblical argument, rather indoctrination (a stronghold).
For one who knocks reading the book of Enoch, you obviously are reading it - is that not hypocrisy? I don't see anything wrong with what you've posted from it. The Book of Enoch was indeed included in the canon of Scripture until 200 years after Jesus walked the earth, when the councils took it out.
So the 'Son of MAN' is named? Was He not predestined to be born and named, even in Isaiah 9:6? I'm thankful you know Jesus IS The Almighty God. Enoch would have had no revelation of the identity of Christ, since His identity was 'concealed' to the prophets in the Old Testament and revealed in the New, most assuredly in the 'Revelation of Jesus Christ' given to John.
Do you believe Jesus is up in heaven interceding as our Mediator today? Maybe the Holy Spirit, too? If so, you need to get a better handle on the Scriptures. It is the 'MAN, Jesus Christ' who was the last 'Mediator' of the New Covenant (grace), just as Moses was the first mediator of the Old (Law)-(John 1:17). Look what Jesus said to His disciples in John 16:26 "Then you will ask in My name. I'm NOT saying I will ask the Father ON YOUR BEHALF" (wish I could BOLD that) - cross-ref this with John 14:20 "On that day you will realize that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you." Truly, His Holy Spirit IN us makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be uttered (Rom 8:26). We ARE a royal priesthood (1 Pet 2:9), amen.
The Bible does say that 'Enoch walked with God' (Gen 5:22-24) and supports what he wrote about the fallen angels and their offspring, even the judgment that would befall them. Being the seventh generation from Adam he witnessed the sins of the fallen angels first-hand and prophesied the great flood. He, like Elijah, never saw death. We can toss out his writings as rubbish or we can ponder them. As for me, I'm not just tossing them out. He gives us more insight to the spirit-realm than most people probably want to know or accept.
The Bible will always trump any extra-biblical writing or doctrine that contradicts. Obviously, you feel Enoch is heresy and contradicts what the Bible teaches. Interesting, because the Bible DOESN'T say Lucifer became the devil any more than it says fallen angels became demons, which you are declaring to be true! Don't you see?
So, lay down the hostility so you are not blinded to learning. If I hadn't submitted to doing so, God couldn't have taught me any more than I was willing to learn. Have any of us arrived?? Stay teachable and stop claiming the Bible supports doctrines it doesn't.
Vineeth on June 12, 2012:
If god created satan with the aim of tempting man to sin,then where is the Justice of God?
Vineeth on June 12, 2012:
You persume God created destroyer-satan, from the beginning of his creation.If so what is God's justice in casting satan to eteral hell fire in revelations20:10.Also why did you delete my previous comments.Are you so afraid to face challenges against your opinions?
Vineeth on June 12, 2012:
The Book of Enoch Teaches Heresy!
To the Biblically ignorant reader, the Book of Enoch might have an appeal; but to a believer grounded in the Scriptures, the Book of Enoch is packed full of heresy. For example:
We read in chapter 40 of the Book of Enoch...
1 And after that I saw thousands of thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand, I saw a multitude 2 beyond number and reckoning, who stood before the Lord of Spirits. And on the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presences, different from those that sleep not, and I learnt their names: for the angel that went with me made known to me their names, and showed me all the hidden things. 3 And I heard the voices of those four presences as they uttered praises before the Lord of glory. 4 The first voice blesses the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever. 5 And the second voice I heard blessing 6 the Elect One and the elect ones who hang upon the Lord of Spirits. And the third voice I heard pray and intercede for those who dwell on the earth and supplicate in the name of the Lord of Spirits. 7 And I heard the fourth voice fending off the Satans and forbidding them to come before the Lord 8 of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth. After that I asked the angel of peace who went with me, who showed me everything that is hidden: ‘Who are these four presences which I have 9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’ 10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.
The Bible never mentions an angel named Phanuel, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life. What blasphemy! That statement in itself contradicts everything the Word of God teaches. We read in 1st Timothy 2:5 that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator between God and men, not some angel named Phanuel... "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Repentance is strictly between a man and Jesus Christ alone. Only Jesus died for our sins,and shed His blood to pay for them (1st Peter 1:18-19); therefore, we must be diligent to guard and defend against LIARS and imposters who would lead people to believe otherwise. 1st John 2:22 clearly indicts all Christ-deniers as LIARS, guilty before God.
Here's chapter 48:1-3...
1 And in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness Which was inexhaustible: And around it were many fountains of wisdom: And all the thirsty drank of them, And were filled with wisdom, And their dwellings were with the righteous and holy and elect. 2 And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Spirits, And his name before the Head of Days. 3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, Before the stars of the heaven were made, His name was named before the Lord of Spirits.
Was the Son of Man named? When was Jesus named in Heaven? This is an attack on the deity of Jesus. Jesus Himself claimed in Revelation 1:8, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Jesus is Eternal, without beginning or end. Head of Days? Lord of Spirits? These terms are NOT found in the Bible. IF the Book of Enoch were valid, composing well over 100 chapters, there should be numerous New Testament references to it; but there aren't. Although some people claim that the Bible quotes the Book of Enoch over 100 times, this is simply not true. Just as the Qur'an, the Book of Enoch borrows from the Word of God. In sharp contrast to the Book of Enoch, the New Testament often quotes the Book of Genesis.
We read in the Book of Enoch, chapter 69:8-12...
8 ...And the fourth was named Penemue: he taught the 9 children of men the bitter and the sweet, and he taught them all the secrets of their wisdom. And he instructed mankind in writing with ink and paper, and thereby many sinned from eternity to 10 eternity and until this day. For men were not created for such a purpose, to give confirmation 11 to their good faith with pen and ink. For men were created exactly like the angels, to the intent that they should continue pure and righteous, and death, which destroys everything, could not have taken hold of them, but through this their knowledge they are perishing, and through this power 12 it is consuming me.
What ... man's wisdom came from a demon named Penemue? That's crazy! Did ink and paper cause the fall of the human race? Whoa ... I'd better through all my fine-point pens away immediately! It was Adam's sin that brought sin into the world (Romans 5:12); not evil literature. Mankind is inherently evil of himself, prone to the works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21). The Charismatics (Pentecostals) give far too much credit to demons for the sinful actions of men. They believe that every sin a person commits is evidence of demon-possession. That is absurd! Men and women sin because they are sinners! (Romans 3:10,23). Although demons definitely influence mankind to do evil, the ultimate decision is OURS. The Devil cannot force anyone to sin. People need to stop blaming demons and the Devil for their sins,and start looking into the mirror. God has promised to help His children live right... "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it" (1st Corinthians 10:13). No excuses!
The Book of Enoch Speaks Mumbo-Jumbo
As you read the Book of Enoch, you will notice a big difference between it and the genuine Word of God. The Bible is readable, from cover to cover, it tells a story. In sharp contrast,the Book of Enoch appears to be mocking the Word of God, quoting phrases here-and-there from the Bible, without any meaningful logic or order. This, coupled with a bunch of added mumbo-jumbo, makes the Book of Enoch a ridiculous piece of literature to even consider inspired by God. As a person progresses deeper into the Book of Enoch,they will eventually find the Books of Adam and Eve fascinating as well, and then they will be into New Age occultism without even realizing it. Don't be fooled friend, the Book of Enoch is occult material that will lead you into the senseless mysticism of pagan religion. The fact that it's being paraded to the public nowadays on Walt Disney's History Station as a SHOCKING revelation, should be a clear warning sign where this is all headed. The credibility of the Word of God is under malicious attack. Here's what the History Station is teaching people about Sodom and Gomorrah.
The Book of Enoch uses unfamiliar terminology, referring to the "Lord of Spirits" and the "Head of Days." These terms are foreign to the Word of God. The messiah is NOT directly mentioned. The ambiguous mention of what may or may not be the Lord Jesus in the Book of Enoch,is eerily reminiscent of Freemasonry (who worship the "Great Architect" ...an undefined, ambiguous, universal god). This is the false god of New Age. It is worthy to note that Christ's deity is not evidenced in the Book of Enoch.
It appears that many statements in the Book of Enoch were taken from the Bible, and then built around with mumbo-jumbo. Many terms from the Bib
Vineeth on June 12, 2012:
Ezekiel 28:14-15 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
These verses are speaking of satanic spirit inside the king of tyre,just as
isiah 4:12 is speaking about the satanic spirit in king of Babylon.These scriptures make it clear that God created satan/heylel/lucifer as a cherub-angel and that he was perfect in his ways,till iniquity was found in him,for which he was cast out of heaven.You cannot deny common sense and wisdom when you interpret scriptures.You need common sense and wisdom to understand that both ezekiel28 & isiah14:12 deals with satanic spirit in kings of babylon and tyre and is not just about them.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 12, 2012:
It's so good to see you, BLACKANDGOLDJACK! Thank you so much for your continued, dedicated support, and I know you know the Word! Unfortunately, if people don't 'know' you, they may take everything you say 'seriously' without seeing the brilliant meaning behind what you are saying. You have a writing style I personally love.
I read your comment about Jezebel, but the person who received your comment didn't know what you were talking about, so took it personally, when all you were doing was quoting the Word. That's what I mean. "They don't know what they do."
I'm thankful ib radmasters wasn't too hard on me. Perhaps the biblical confirmation that the earth is more than 6,000 years old and that the earth revolves around the sun were helpful, if God is indeed drawing him to the Truth, even through science. The Bible proves science, even before we get there - poor Galileo! Martyred by the crusades for speaking the biblical truth! Just like you being banned from the forums! Arggghhh!!!
I hope they lift that ban again soon, brother ~ just know you actually must be doing something RIGHT to be persecuted in such a way. You have my support always. Thank you again for yours, and you are blessed by God; I know it.
Jack Hazen from Blitzburgh area on June 12, 2012:
Right on, Judah’s Daughter!
Terrific article, as usual. I could not find one single thing in the article I do not agree with. Your analysis pertaining to homosexuality is particularly brilliant. And, of course, you know I read your “Homosexuality and Christianity” hub because I commented on it several times.
ib radmasters is an atheist. His quest is not for truth. I find it actually funny he would say that, based upon my previous interactions with him. His quest is to discredit believers and the Bible, and he will say just about anything to further his agenda.
One thing he said is, “Genesis is too vague and ambiguous to give any correlation to a historical timeline for creation.”
And that proves what? Nothing. The word I would use for Genesis 1 is simple. And why is it simple? Because God was communicating the creation of the world to Moses. Moses was not a rocket scientist, he was a simple man. Moses, divinely inspired, had to communicate the creation of the world to other simple men, both verbally and eventually in writing. So in Genesis 1 we have a simple explanation of the creation of the world. Makes perfect sense to me.
I saw your topic in the forums, but unfortunately I couldn’t post on it, because I am banned, for the fourth time. I just can’t understand why atheists don’t like me.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 11, 2012:
Hello VOICE CIW - I'm glad you could glean something from this writing here, while there are things you don't agree with. I would say to delve into further study about those things. I have included other links in this hub of my Bible studies to expound on some of these controversial subjects, (i.e. as to whether or not God tests (not tempts) anyone or whether or not Lucifer is the Devil). I wouldn't state anything as fact unless it can be tried and tested by the Word. I do appreciate you coming by to read. I really do. Thank you and God bless you.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 11, 2012:
Vladimir, I deleted your comment because you state as fact something I have challenged you to prove Biblically, that being that Lucifer is Satan. You cannot, nor can anyone else (I even opened a forum). You know I have invited you and r-o-y over to read the Biblical PROOF that Lucifer is NOT the Devil, and neither of you will have your traditional doctrine challenged by the Holy Bible alone. So, I find it extremely disrespectful to just make a blatant statement (as though it were fact), simply because you love traditional teaching more than the truth of the Bible.
I studied the subject because I set out to prove Lucifer was the Devil and surprisingly, I found the truth and changed my tune. I can no longer state such a thing unless I can back it up with sound Biblical scripture, just as I do in this hub.
The links to my doctrinal study on the subject is provided in this hub called "Is Lucifer the Devil?" and the second to back it up called "Lucifer: The spirit of Antichrist". How many times am I to invite you to read? Yes, you can choose to read and reject the study, but please - don't state anything as fact unless you can prove it scripturally. I have little respect for those who do so.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 11, 2012:
Oh, okay ~ Dave. It sounded like you had those questions, but yes ~ these are some very tough questions many ask, thus I took on the subject and am glad it answers these questions. Thank you, brother and God bless.
VOICE CIW on June 11, 2012:
God bless you Judah's Daughter, this writing is very well done. I agree with mostly all that you wrote, certain things in this hub, I did not agree with, but, we christians don't see eye to eye on everything. But my Sister in Christ I enjoyed this hub, it is well-written and well-researched. You stay blessed of the Lord. I love you in the Lord.
Vladimir Uhri from HubPages, FB on June 11, 2012:
I see you blocked my comment.
Dave Mathews from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA on June 11, 2012:
Judah's Daughter: Yes I did read the whole thing. I was simply re-asking questions that all should be asking themselves as they read through this writing as it is a lengthy one indeed.
I enjoyed the challenge in understanding what is written here.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 11, 2012:
Dave, I hope you read the entirety of this hub because all your questions are answered in it. Thank you and God bless you.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 11, 2012:
ib radmasters, I appreciate the discussion. Yes, Genesis does give a literal 6-day account of creation and the creation of the earth itself was not mentioned on any of those six days:
Day 1: Light separated from darkness; morning and evening ~ the first “day”.
Day 2: God separated the waters from the heavens and from the earth. God called the expanse, “sky”.
Day 3: God caused the water to separate on the earth, bringing forth dry ground and called the waters, “seas”. Vegetation and plants were brought forth on the earth.
Day 4: God made the sun, the moon and the stars to govern day from night.
Day 5: God made the sea and air creatures.
Day 6: God made the land creatures, then mankind.
Day 7: God rested.
The Bible speaks of the sun standing still in Joshua 10:12-14. In 1633, Galileo was commanded to appear before the Roman Inquisition for writing a book entitled Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Ptolemaic and Copernican. This book advocated the heliocentric model of the solar system that the earth turns on its axis and orbits the sun.
I’m sorry you haven’t met anyone that has been re-generated in Christ Jesus. I can tell you He changed me from the person/behavior I used to relish in to the joy I have in not doing those things anymore – in other words, not focusing on self-pleasure (emptiness), but pleasing God, giving me a greater, fulfilling joy.
ib radmasters from Southern California on June 11, 2012:
The use of light and dark to separate the Days in Genesis makes it six days total. The Earth is four and a half billion years old, but the universe is over thirteen billion years old.
Genesis is too vague and ambiguous to give any correlation to a historical timeline for creation.
Even the church couldn't figure out from the bible that the Sun didn't revolve around the Earth, and they didn't believe Copernicus. This was over fifteen hundred years after Jesus. So even the New Testament wasn't enlightening on creation.
My quest is the truth, and the truth doesn't require faith, it requests proof. My point on human nature not changing during recorded history is proof that Jesus didn't change anything. Now thousand years later there is little reason to believe that for any reason, including being reborn will change the people for the better.
Thanks for reading.
Dave Mathews from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA on June 11, 2012:
Judah's Daughter, dear sister: I voted this one two thumbs up and awesome. This writing is extremely provocative, for those who understand and believe in holy scripture.
Indeed you did a marvellous job here stiring up the mind and the heart. You raise many great points and substantiate them quite adequately with scripture, but with what you say questions are also raised.
When Lucifer was cast out of heaven, why dispatch him and his followers to earth?
Why give him the opportunity to tempt and test mankind, who was created as perfect beings, prior to their tempting?
Why was it necessary for god to create a haven for evil?
Since man was perfect according to God's creation, why would an adversary be needed for man?
I have more questions but I will persue their answers in God's Holy Word.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 10, 2012:
Hi ib radmasters. It's good you came to read, and as you can probably tell, I don't necessarily hold to traditional doctrines that have been taught throughout the centuries - the key here is 'tradition'. Likewise, I do not believe the earth is only six thousand years old. Here's why:
Gen 1:1 states "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." We don't see the earth begin created in the six-day account, if we start with Day 1. Therefore, we can go to the next verse (2) and read "and the earth was without form and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." So, we have an earth covered by water before Day 1 of the creation.
As far as the degeneration of man, this is true; however, this is why we must be 'born again', in order to be re-generated/transformed into the image of Christ. We're going in one of two directions, based on the divine choice given us by God, our Creator: Life (regeneration) or Death (degeneration).
I hope what I've stated here helps you in your quest (if you're on one). Thanks for coming by.
ib radmasters from Southern California on June 10, 2012:
This is like a dog chasing its own tail.
God either exists or doesn't exist.
Reading two thousand year old documents to get answers is a little ridiculous, considering that the Earth is over four and a half billion years old, and recorded history for humans is ten to twelve thousand years old.
The bibles were written by humans, and without any knowledge beyond what humans knew at the time of the writing.
While technology has changed in the world, human nature has never changed for the better, not before, during or after Jesus?
If there is a God, it would be ridiculous to have a war in heaven, war is a human response and action. Not one of a super being.
Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on June 10, 2012:
How could I know, other than by the Spirit of God! PRAISE HIM! See, HE LOVES YOU!!! HalleluYah! I am laughing in the JOY of the LORD! He LIVES!