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David is Jesus

Jesus at the Sermon on the Mount.

Jesus at the Sermon on the Mount.

King David, Son of God

David, son of Jesse, became King of Israel. He was chosen by God and anointed by the prophet, Samuel. Not long before, Saul had been chosen, but Saul faltered and did not keep the faith with God. Saul became bitter and paranoid. The kingship went to his head and he chose his council unwisely.

Saul had given Michal, his daughter, to David as his wife. But afterward, Saul tried repeatedly to have David killed. Michal so loved David that she saved his life by helping her husband escape. And then, to spite David, Saul gave Michal to another (Paltiel or Palti, son of Laish). Did not Saul know that adultery was a sin? Later, David took her back.

When David became king over the whole of Israel, after Saul's death, he brought the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem. Barely clothed and dancing wildly, David showed his unbridled love for God. But Michal, seeing her husband dancing in the street, thought his actions obscene.

David rebuked Michal for her attitude.

Some scholars feel that David did not love Michal as she loved him and merely used her to gain legitimacy for his throne, because she was the first king's daughter. But one thing is clear: Michal cared more for appearances (ego) than for David's ecstatic love for the Heavenly Father.

Which is more important? First of all, when is ego ever important? Second, and most importantly, love for the Heavenly Father is more important than any other thing we can do. This includes love for one another, for whatever you do unto the least of them, you do unto the Father.

David had wanted to build a temple for the Ark of the Covenant and for God, but he was instructed not to do so. The one to follow him would build the temple. Nathan, the prophet, speaking a message of the Lord God to King David:

"And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David" (2 Samuel 7:16–17).

In Psalms, David writes, " I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee" (Psalm 2:7).

We know that Psalm 2 was written by David because of the writing in Acts: "Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things" (Acts 4:25)? This echoes the words from the chapter in Psalms, "Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing" (Psalm 2:1)?

David is the son of God; Jesus is the son of God.

More Revelations from the Bible

Jesus to Carry on the Legacy of David

"And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end" (Luke 1:31–33).

When Jesus was on the cross, he quoted several times from the Davidic Psalm 22. This fulfilled David's prophecy.

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star" (Revelation 22:16). Jesus is the "root and offspring"—the "alpha and omega" of David. This is David's throne; this is Jesus's throne.

"But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them" (Jeremiah 30:9). This specifically states that King David will be raised up at some later time for people to serve.

"Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days" (Hosea 3:5). In the Latter Days Jesus shall reign, but David shall be their king.

"Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it" (Ezekiel 34:22-24). Here, the Lord God, speaking through the prophet Ezekiel, says that David will be the shepherd who tends to the flock of humanity. But that's also Jesus's job.

Jesus being presented by Pontius Pilate to the crowds.

Jesus being presented by Pontius Pilate to the crowds.


Could Jesus also have been David reincarnated? Why not! Let us look at the evidence.

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Reincarnation is, for some, anathema. The political maneuverings of two emperors made it so (Constantine I of Rome and Justinian I of Byzantium). The dogma of the current church is a bastardization of the pure word of God.

Jesus proclaimed the veracity of reincarnation when he told his disciples that Elijah (Elias) had returned, but no one had recognized him—not even John the Baptist—the one who was Elijah returned. John the Baptist had become a stumbling block (Luke 7:23). He had faltered in his mission and Jesus was less than pleased.

When John the Baptist refused to acknowledge his true identity, he was suffering from false humility. He had lost sight of the mission on which he had been commissioned. He forgot who Jesus was. He had to send one of his own disciples to ask of Jesus if he was the Messiah.

So many Christians are afraid of reincarnation. They think it is an Eastern philosophy. They don't think that the immortal spirit could ever attach to a non-Homo sapiens species.

Reincarnation has long been a part of Jewish mysticism—the same mystics who wrote Genesis and included their Kabbalistic "Tree of Life" in two chapters of the Bible's first book. The Imperial church had outlawed "free will." They had outlawed truth. They killed anyone who attempted to find truth outside of their prescribed dogma. The Cathars (of France, Western Europe) believed in reincarnation and the Imperial church had them put to death—a pogrom which took nearly two hundred years to suppress and ultimately eradicate the philosophical threat.

Reincarnation was also part of the Celtic beliefs. Hardly an Eastern group, the Celts were known for their ferociousness in battle. Julius Caesar commented on their belief in reincarnation and how it made their warriors feel invincible, because bodily death meant little to them.

Some Christians feel that reincarnation is denied by Hebrews 9:27. This passage says nothing about reincarnation. It only says that each human life is a one-time deal and that then there is the judgment for that one life. But what of the child of God, within? The sleeping immortal has had many bodies; each one lives only once and is judged for its short time on earth. There is no contradiction. There is no denial of reincarnation. Hebrews 9:27 was talking about something entirely different.

Some Christians abhor the idea that reincarnation allows for the soul to exist in an animal body. Such an idea is tragic, certainly, because salvation is only possible when the soul exists in a human body (Homo sapiens). That's why God created this species.

Was Homo sapiens a special order job? All other species appear to have been evolved over millions of years. Could Homo sapiens have been created from scratch? Anything is possible when the Lord God is involved. And He would do anything to get His children back, even wipe the face of the Earth clean to eliminate a very real and very specific threat to His rescue plans.

We're talking about Noah's Flood. The real threat was Neanderthal man—the evolved species which looked enough like man to be called "man" by modern anthropologists. And the sons of God found the daughters of man to be fair and they took them to be their wives. This was the crime. The hybrid offspring could not offer the vessel of salvation for which Homo sapiens had been created. Souls in Homo neanderthalensis would be doomed to perpetual slumber. With Neanderthal, there would be no civilization and no salvation.

Reincarnation vs. Resurrection

Another common "defense" of Christians against the supposed taboo of reincarnation is that those who believe in reincarnation are confusing this with the resurrection.

This is a lame excuse. The two—resurrection and reincarnation—are two separate things entirely. The resurrection at the judgment is a one-time event; reincarnation is a cycle of opportunities prior to the resurrection. There is no contradiction and no confusion.

God so loves His children that He would give them multiple opportunities to come back to Him.

Shaking Up Your World

These ideas may shake up your world. Why would anyone want to do that?

Because you don't know truth. You are not yet humble enough. You may be on the path, but you have not yet traveled to its end. You may even have walked on water, but that by itself is not good enough.

Keep reading scripture. Forget about all that you have been taught. Listen to the quiet, still voice within.

Who am I? A fellow traveler. I have seen many miracles. The power of the Lord is unimaginable and I have felt it, but even I am not yet worthy. So, why should you listen to me?

There's no time for me to make it there and to come back for you. The warning needs to be given now.

If there is anything you take from this, let it be a message of "questioning your own authority." Forget what I believe. And forget what everyone else believes. This includes forgetting what everyone else has taught you. Read the Bible with a fresh eye—one untarnished by 1500 years of lies.

The King is returning.

There will be a pretender to the throne. His name may even be "David." But judge by his heart and his actions. He will be cunning and he will fool many people, but see into his heart. Then you will know him. The pretender will fall.

The King is returning and his kingdom will remain forevermore.


Jodi Droesch on February 22, 2018:

I really don't see how you can quote that Jesus is the offspring of David and then turn around and try and convince people he is David. Acts tells us that David saw corruption and that David knew his offspring Jesus would not see corruption. David died having hope in his own resurrection not in being reincarnated. That is simple biblical fact.

Rod Martin Jr (author) from Cebu, Philippines on January 22, 2016:

Wow! What a fascinating batch of information. I'm having a hard time connecting anything you've written with reality. Care to connect the dots for this pour soul? Documentation? Sources?

Rod Martin Jr (author) from Cebu, Philippines on March 07, 2014:

@Scientist1221, thank you for your comments.

If we are "in spirit," then the Father is in us, too.


Rod Martin Jr (author) from Cebu, Philippines on March 07, 2014:

@latres, thank you for your kind words. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Scientist1221 on January 20, 2014:

@lone77star ... do not be discouraged!!! the truth is undeniable. and it will shine as a light in the darkness. Many who have spoken on here obviously only believe what they are told, and have never read and investigated the truth for themselves. but you have faltered in one aspect. you ommited the most important detail of all... JESUS was not only David. he was 2 beings. Jesus stated, "i am in the Father and the Father is in me.(john 14:11)" Jesus the father, came to live in david. and so now when we see David, we only see through him, and we see the spirit of God that is within him. "having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they." (hebrews 1:4) This means Jesus was the name passed down to him by his father. "

but about eeryone who speaks agains what they don't know are rebels.

and we must tell them and they will rebel. but as long as they know than their blood is not on my hands.

Latres from United States on January 05, 2014:

"You Inspire Me To Be The Higher Me"... Lauryn Hill

Absolutely Amazing. Thanks!

Rod Martin Jr (author) from Cebu, Philippines on April 09, 2013:

Thank you @celafoe for checking it out.

You are so quick to judge. Is that a humble position? I have made some discoveries and want to share them. I thought I was being generous. Did I ever say they were a "superior position?" I have been proven wrong on many things and learned from them.

But instead of discussing things, you have the humility to know better? You have the love in your heart to refuse teaching me your "superior position?" You have a willing student. I have spent a lifetime hungry to learn. But you do not teach by saying, "what a mess this is," "not worth wasting time on," or "you need 2 to prove it and there are none."

Discussing ideas would be wonderful without ego. I don't fear being wrong. But instead of showing how I'm wrong, you hide your superior knowledge and run off to sulk. Is that a loving attitude?

May God continue to give you His blessings always. Go in peace.

charlie from From Kingdom of God living on Planet earth in between the oceans on April 07, 2013:

Its ok I just checked out some more of your materials. I was right the first time, you have reached a superior position in your (false) humility that allows you to see things us mortals cannot.

with your last note above i will have to say goodbye i will not waste any more time here. I was right the first time.

Rod Martin Jr (author) from Cebu, Philippines on April 07, 2013:

Thank you, @celafoe. I find it puzzling that you consider scripture and the pursuit of Truth to be obscure and strange.

You asked about reincarnation which is part of the topic of this article. But now you won't look at the scripture discussed in my references. That's your choice. But I wonder why you made such a noise about it. If you look in a mirror, you might be able to find out.

I will not answer your last question. That's between me and God.

charlie from From Kingdom of God living on Planet earth in between the oceans on April 07, 2013:

It seems from the information you sent me that you have a fascination with obscure and strange information. I will address each scripture you used in this article but will not consider the two websites you sent me because this article is the subject. But first I need to ask you a very important question. Have you been born again, baptized in water and baptized in The HolySpirit as separate acts according to scripture?

charlie from From Kingdom of God living on Planet earth in between the oceans on April 07, 2013:

wow-- first i must ask you to forgive me. you are right i did assume that since you wrote this as truth that you would not be open to correction. That is the response I have had from 90% on here but it is is no excuse. AND that was wrong of me and I appreciate you telling me face to face as required in Matthew 18. , the usual response is to try to discredit whoever challenged. Again please forgive me. and I will go back, re read and address the issues that i find. thank you

Rod Martin Jr (author) from Cebu, Philippines on April 07, 2013:

And @celafoe, you make a false statement rather than ask a question. You could have said, "Can you show me scripture that talks about reincarnation?" That would be the civil and humble approach. Then, if I cannot, you can instruct me and help me to see wisdom and truth. See, that's how love would handle it.

But is it arrogance to think you know everything? That you know Truth? To condemn something before you even discuss it? Your first words: "what a mess this is." Full of judgment and nothing of an openness to learn.

I don't know Truth. I've gotten glimpses of it when miracles happened and the heavens opened up. I've felt it when I was able to step out of my body and see the world without human eyes as a child of God and no longer a human body. But I know I still have a great deal to learn. Would you ever be so willing and hungry to learn?

You say I provided no scripture, so you must be blind or lazy, because I included some scripture both in my last comment and in the article. To say that I included "no scripture," is thus false.

There is a fair amount of scripture about reincarnation and you can find it detailed in my article,

and also in my hub,

So, next time, instead of making accusations and pronouncements, perhaps a humble question would be better.

I hope this helps.

charlie from From Kingdom of God living on Planet earth in between the oceans on March 28, 2013:

wow, you present reincarnation as a scriptural concept without even one scripture to back it up. (because there are NONE). Had you supplied scripture i would have checked them for context as well.

then because I call you out on it instead of supplying your scripture proof you make unfounded accusations against me. you want me to believe it because you said it. sorry that is an unsciptural request.

hmmm- interesting , "my God says to test all things to see if they be of God", which I did and it failed the scripture test. And I compared it against the original language not a translation.

then you tell me I have no humility because I want scripture proof of what you try to teach, what scripture do you read, none of the bible translations will back up that concept.

you say what is the point of discussing scripture-- you presented your thoughts and No scripture for them, how can you accuse me of not being willing to discuss scripture when you gave me none to discuss"

I rebuke you for making false accusations about me in the name of Jesus and stand by my original comments.

Rod Martin Jr (author) from Cebu, Philippines on March 28, 2013:

Thank you, @celafoe, for your opinion.

So far from scripture, or so far from your interpretation of scripture?

What's the point of discussing scripture if your dogma, opinion, or prejudices prevent discussion. Even Christ discussed scripture in order to enlighten others.

Resorting to judgments without discussion amounts to hubris (arrogance). The Pharisees and Sadducees were experts at this. And we have many modern-day Pharisees who look to the letter of the law and not the spirit of it.

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV).

There are so many different and conflicting views of scripture, only one can be right -- one or none!

One of the aims of this article was to provoke humility. Or to make one more aware of their own lack of it.

charlie from From Kingdom of God living on Planet earth in between the oceans on March 25, 2013:

what a mess this is. It is so far from scripture it is not worth wasting time on. We do not need a scripture to deny it you need 2 to prove it and there are none.


Rod Martin Jr (author) from Cebu, Philippines on March 07, 2012:

Thank you, CJ. You said that you're not foolish enough to think that you will become Jesus or a god. Thank goodness for that, but were you thinking that's how reincarnation works? That certainly was not my point.

And yet it's curious that Jesus would tell his enemies, "ye are gods." For what is a child of God, but someone who looks like their parent; i.e. baby gods. The real danger, though, is in ego trying to claim this identity for itself. That truly would be an abomination.

A recount on the "women are human" vote? Hilarious! I never knew that one. Thanks! LOL!

You disagree about the point that Jesus was not responsible for creating the heavens and the earth. You said, "I think the Bible is clear that nothing was made without the Word of God, who is also the Almighty's Son and Firstborn." Certainly, that is one interpretation, but "clear" is debatable. We were all there at the beginning, if I understand Genesis 1:26. Some of us fell from grace and it's been a long road back.

The "Word of God" is the "Firstborn?" I like it. But clearly (to me, at least) there is a lot yet to be understood. We cannot hope to receive such wisdom from God if we have preconceived notions about these things.

And the word is "per se," not "per say." But "God Head" is an interesting concept. I wonder how true it is.

Thanks for the passage from Hebrews. Most interesting, but again, wisdom tells me not to rush to judgment in interpreting any passage. I can have ideas about it, but I need to remain humble to its true meaning until God lets me in on it, if ever.

You, too, my friend. Best wishes to you and be well. You've helped give me more food for thought. I continue to learn and appreciate all of my teachers.

CJ Sledgehammer on March 02, 2012:

Thank you, Lone77star, for taking the time to clarify some of your positions, although I am still trying process some of them.

You asked, "But do we really know all there is to know?"


No, of course we don't. The Bible states that even the angels of heaven only know a snippet about the mysterious and glorious God they serve.

You further question, "And doesn't that inspire you to think that as sinners we can, through Christ, become like him?"


I am inspired that perhaps, one day, I can be more like my Lord in thought, word, and deed, but I am not foolish enough to think that I will become Him or become a god.

You pose an interesting thought, "Women claim to be human. Now, for women to be human, does that imply that all humans are women?"


No, of course not.

As a side note, in around 560 A.D. the Roman Catholic church met to discuss this very issue. The Bishops in attendence had a lively debate that culminated in a 32-31 vote, in favor of the notion that women were indeed humans. I think, however, that many men then, and now, would like to see a recount! :0)

You further asked, "Was Jesus responsible for creating the heavens and the earth?" Then you go on to say, "I think not? Jesus never said that he was God the Father. He said that he and the Father are one -- in harmony."


I respectfully disagree with your first point because I think the Bible is clear that nothing was made without the Word of God, who is also the Almighty's Son and Firstborn.

However, I tend to agree with you on your second point, that the Son of God and His Father are not the same Being, per say, but are part of what is known as the "God Head".

Please consider Hebrews 1:1-3 from which we read, (1)"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,(2) but in these last days he has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed Heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.(3) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful Word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."

Best wishes and be well - C.J. Sledgehammer

Rod Martin Jr (author) from Cebu, Philippines on March 02, 2012:

@CJ Sledgehammer, thanks for the input.

Mormons? Interesting question. Here's another one: Women claim to be human. Now, for women to be human, does that imply that all humans are women?

Was Jesus responsible for creating the heavens and the earth? I think not? Jesus never said that he was God the Father. He said that he and the Father are one -- in harmony.

Is the body the immortal soul? I think not? When God created us in His image, Genesis 1:26 was not talking about God being Homo sapiens.

Let's look at it another way.

If you've lived as an adult for more than a decade, you've likely used more than one vehicle for transportation. You may have owned a number of cars. When you no longer used your first vehicle, you did not lose your true self. Your true identity was left unaffected.

In the Judas Gospel, Judas is concerned about how he will be remembered. Jesus assures Judas that he will exceed them all, because he will betray the man that Jesus wore. As a spiritual being (child of God), we each wear this body like a cloak. Sadly, we too often come to think we are the cloak. This is us being "of this world." We need, instead to be spirit, and merely be "in this world."

Was Jesus David, and David Jesus? I don't know. But it wouldn't surprise me if they were the same spiritual child of God.

And doesn't that inspire you to think that as sinners we can, through Christ, become like him? If David, despite his sins, could be so beloved by God, because of his faith and humility, then we have a chance. Yes, that chance is already implicit in Christ's lessons.

But do we really know all there is to know?

Rod Martin Jr (author) from Cebu, Philippines on March 02, 2012:

Beautiful words, @heavenbound5511. Thanks for sharing and for stopping by.

CJ Sledgehammer on February 23, 2012:

The LDS church claims that "Mormons are Christians". Now, for Mormons to be Christians, does that imply that Christians are Mormons?

So, if David is Jesus then David?

Was David responsible for creating the heavens and the earth? Was David the Word of God as described in John 1:1? Did Jesus have adulterous sex with Bathsheba and have her husband killed? Was David the Son of God and Jesus the father of Solomon?

I like to think outside the box as much as the next guy, but I think sometimes a guy can get a little too cute for his own good and take Scriptural liberties too far. :0)

heavenbound5511 from Under the shadow of the Almighty God! on February 22, 2012:

Jesus is returning and we all should seek to do the will of God which is better than all man-made ways.

In The name of Jesus we ask you God to give us the strength to not enter into temptation. Only you God can cause us to stand or fall- we pray that you cause us to stand and bring glory to your name.

Fill us and lead us by your spirit God to do your will alone. Unveil our eyes to see the truth, so that we may go out into all the world and offer them the only living water that saves all mankind - Salvation for all in Christ who died for us, so we can have fellowship with God.

Always we trust, seek, praise, and have faith because our God is faithful and will do as he promised us.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

God bless you!

Rod Martin Jr (author) from Cebu, Philippines on February 17, 2012:

Pedro, thank you for the deeply thoughtful and rich response. I continue to learn from such conversations.

I too have found that meaning in the Bible is not an easy thing to acquire. I sincerely believe that the earliest parts of the Bible remain doubly difficult to interpret with purpose behind that difficulty. Humility is essential to spiritual reawakening. It takes humility to discover meaning and to reveal truth. Because of this, it seems clear that the writers of Genesis, for instance, would have hid a great deal of wisdom because of this. They wanted to elicit the required humility along with the message.

And yes, I agree with you that the condemnations of so-called Christians against others for their differing interpretations is unworthy of Christ. Even I know that my interpretation is lacking. I may have discovered some things, but I know too well that I do not have the whole picture.

I am familiar with your examples of translation. Knowing someone in the biblical sense is a common euphemism for sexual relations.

Thanks for the link. I understand the intent of the writer and I am familiar with the "in the spirit" and "power" of Elias viewpoint. I understand your viewpoint that Elisha also had the "spirit" of Elijah. But can't the reincarnated spirit of Elias also have the "power" of Elias? I also see no contradiction here with reincarnation.

When JB denies being Elias (Elijah), he is being truthful in that idea, because his body is not named such. His physical form is not the same physical body of that held by the Holy Spirit of Elijah. But it seems to me that JB had failed in two ways in his mission: (1) failing to remember his "Elijah"-like role, and (2) failing to remember his prior life as Elijah.

Your analysis of "who is to come" is most interesting and enlightening. Very nice. But again, I find nothing in "who is to come" that prevents or contradicts reincarnation. If Elijah himself was to return in a different vehicle, he would still be the "Elijah" who was predicted to come--not the body of Elijah descending from Heaven on a fiery chariot, as some might have expected.

In Matthew 17:12-13, Jesus is more direct and emphatic: "But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him,..." The Holy Spirit that inhabited Elijah did not perish. Though it did not enjoy the Immaculate Conception given to the form to be known as Yehoshua of Nazareth, this does not mean that he could not have attached himself to a normally-conceived child of Yehoshua's family (cousin), at the direction of the Almighty.

2 Kings 2:15 does not prevent Elijah from having the "spirit" of Elijah in that regard, either. And this "spirit" is not reincarnation, certainly.

The Christian church has long been at war with those who did not see things their own way. They murdered the Cathars of France partly because they believed in reincarnation. They burned Giordano Bruno at the stake, partly because of this, too. And they condemned the once-honored early church father, Origen, for his belief in the "fabulous pre-existence of souls."

The Jews have not been at war so much as merely shunning those who believe in reincarnation, like the Jewish mystics who study the Kabbalah. I have found the Kabbalah's "Tree of Life" embedded in two books of Genesis, proving that their wisdom has been around far longer than some scholars are comfortable admitting.


Okay, let's back off from this discussion and look at purpose and motivation.

First of all, God wants His children back. They've become trapped after "eating" the product (fruit) of "knowledge of" (wallowing in; consumed by?) good-evil. This dichotomy and perhaps all others make up the flesh and bone of ego. This is the "darkness" pulled over our spiritual eyes.

We are inherently immortal spirit (Genesis 1:26) wrapped in Homo sapiens flesh (Genesis 2:7). Because we are trapped in ego (the poison of the forbidden fruit), we cannot see who we really are, and we are vulnerable to the action-reaction laws of physical reality. With regard to ego, this is karma (Matthew 26:52). The lessons of spirit are the only things we take with us when we die. And in a new life, the hardened heart of the criminal may soften when their sins come back to them (Numbers 14:18).

With ego gone (the false self which must die before we may gain everlasting life), we can once again see with our spiritual eyes. We can once again walk on water and even greater things (John 14:12).

Reincarnation aids in God's purpose. Why wouldn't the heavenly father want such a thing? With reincarnation, there is plenty of room for gaining the "spirit of Elijah" within each of us. There is plenty of room for the Resurrection, which is an entirely different, one-time event.

So many people have remembered past lives and gained relief from such knowledge. Just as Christ said, if we know the truth, we gain freedom (John 8:32). Viewing such truth is the reverse step of giving a creation persistence (Genesis 2:2). It literally takes the "time" out of a creation, problem, malady, etc. When we "know" the truth of ego, all may be revealed.

Pedro, I have no intention of convincing you. I respect your viewpoint and wish great blessings for your efforts. That you discuss such things with me fills me with hope for all of us, and it challenges me toward greater understanding and humility.

Pedro Morales on February 15, 2012:

Lone77star thanks for your detail response.

I have found through years of reading the Bible that finding the meaning of what an author intended is not so plain and easy as many has tried to present it. Christian fundamentalism has advocated the literal interpretation of the Bible for years. On numerous occasions it has been shown to be wrong in their interpretations by critical scholarship. But what is worse is that they have tried to force their simplistic literal interpretations of many important passages upon the people as a result of which many have left their churches. They have also used their interpretation of the Bible in a similar manner as the Catholic church during the Middle Ages: to define who is a Christian and who is not. Then they move to attack anyone who does not conform to their teachings, casting aspersions, false allegations against them. I'm sure that you agree with me in regarding those practices as lamentable and unworthy of the body of Christ.

Many things need to be consider when reading a translated text from another culture and age.

For instance, the translated phrase '(this person) knew (this person)' refers in many places throughout the Bible, from Genesis to the Gospels, to two people having sexual relationships not just becoming acquainted with one another(see Matthew 1:25). The word 'clouds' in the Bible can refer to the literal clouds but in many prophetic pronouncements it can refer to a group of people of a group of witnesses. The term 'water' in Revelation is used to refer to people also. And many more cases...

In regards to differences in culture, it seems to me that the Jewish people had some kind of tradition by which they gave the name of a person to someone that resembled that person in character. See this resource:

Check what it says regarding verse 11:14.

I concede that the reference to John the Baptist being Elijah could at first sight appear to be a recognition of reincarnation, particularly for people that believe in it. In Matthew 11:14 the Revised Standard Version has "and if you are willing to accept it, he(John the Baptist)is Elijah who is to come." Just as you said Jesus does not say that John the Baptist is someone like Elijah. Yet with simply saying JB is Elijah that should suffice if all Jesus wants to say is that he is the same person who had gone up in a chariot of fire several centuries earlier. By adding "who is to come" Jesus qualifies the identity. It is like saying, John is the Elijah that the Jewish people are expecting. They are expecting him coming down from heaven, as one would expect someone to return who had gone up to heaven in a chariot of fire. Jesus dismisses any kind of thinking like that.

Because of the misconception, Luke expounds into what it means for John the Baptist to be Elijah. He explains that John will have the spirit and power of Elijah. This does not mean reincarnation. If so then Elisha was also a reincarnated Elijah II Kings 2.15 says that the spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha. That specific phrase is not even intended to be taken literally. The phrase refers to Elisha being able to manifest the same miraculous powers Elijah had demonstrated.

When Jesus declares that JB is Elijah, he is addressing a different situation than believe in reincarnation. The meaning of the statement of Jesus is not so plain to the people, otherwise why did Jesus framed this declaration between "if you are willing to accept it" and "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Jesus as the Messiah worked to be accepted by his people. He looked forward for them to receive him and have faith in him. But for the Jewish people, and in particular the Jewish religious leaders to accept any Messiah there was one condition that had to be fulfilled. Elijah had to appear first. Malachi the prophet had prophesied that Elijah would return before the 'day of the Lord'- a reference to the coming of the Messiah. Yet the disciples of Jesus had been going around preaching that Jesus was the promised Messiah. The messianic expectations of the traditional Jews included the understanding that Elijah's return would precede the coming of Jesus. Each of the Gospels reflect this understanding, John being described in some manner as the fulfillment of that prophecy, as in Mark, Matthew and Luke, or the concern is brought forth by an official Jewish delegation in the Gospel of John.

Yet ironically, the disciples of Jesus themselves were at first unaware of this messianic expectation as Mark 9:11 indicates: And they(Peter, James and John) asked him(Jesus), why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?

Jesus proceeds to acknowledge the understanding of the scribes as correct and declares that Elijah did come, though in the Gospel of Mark the identification with John is not explicitly made by Jesus.

In other words, for the Jewish leaders to recognize that Jesus is the Messiah, Elijah has to have come first and be somewhere. This type of situation manifested once again in a tragic manner for the Jewish nation in the case of Bar Kokhba and Rabbi Akiva. Bar Kokhba led the third major and final Jewish rebellion against Rome, after which the Jews were barred from Jerusalem. He managed to lead this rebellion because he proclaimed himself the messiah. But in difference to the case of Jesus, he had an Elijah figure who testified for him: Rabbi Akiva. This man had as much respect as John the Baptist had, and became one of the greatest sages of Judaism. Because of his support, the Jewish religious leadership and the people followed Bar Kokhba. Had John the Baptist understood his position and supported Jesus in the same manner as Akiva supported that false messiah, Jesus would have been accepted by the Jewish people. Jesus would not have led them into a violent war against Rome.

Besides the Malachi prophecy there was another Jewish custom that required that Jesus had someone that testified to him. The Jewish people required that other person or two bear witness in favor of someone else. The person bearing witness to himself would not be accepted. This tradition comes out clearly in the Gospel of John. Though John the Baptist began to give testimony to Jesus, in two days he had stopped. John's own disciples were confused about what that testimony meant, and he never simply told them: "Go and follow Jesus". How could he? He would not do that himself. Had John become a direct disciple of Jesus all of the people following him would have not been confused as to what they had to do. All this I am telling you runs opposite traditional teaching. But the traditional Christian teaching on JB makes no sense in regards to his having been fully committed to Jesus.

As you so rightly observe John became a stumbling block for the people accepting Jesus as the Messiah. JB never became an active disciple of Jesus and stopped giving testimonies in order to go preach against the incestuous relationship between Herod and his wife. His last message, where he should in no uncertain terms demonstrated his total allegiance to Jesus, is a question of doubt and lack of faith: are you the one who is to come or shall we look for another? How could Jesus proudly announce that JB is Elijah. JB main task as the Gospel of John 1:6-9 presents is to give testimony to Jesus that all might believe. Because of the lack of faith he showed the disciples that remained with him for the most part would have problems listening to Jesus. Historical research has corroborated that. But also the religious leadership would take the claim by Jesus regarding JB being Elijah-after JB had been imprisoned- as simply a vile attempt to use JB's prestige to establish his own claim as the Messiah. If the followers of Jesus try to respond that JB gave testimony to Jesus but that he lost faith at the end, the religious leadership had a stronger reason to refute the idea of JB being Elijah. JB himself had denied it. He could not have denied that simply because he was ignorant of some previous life. JB's father knew the role he was to play as the forerunner and Elijah figure to Jesus.

Rod Martin Jr (author) from Cebu, Philippines on February 08, 2012:

@Pedro Morales, thank you for the invaluable link to the topic of typology. Very nice.

I think I understand your disagreement with reincarnation, but could you elaborate?

There is a great deal of evidence in support of reincarnation. Some can be found at,

Biblically speaking, the most direct evidence is the statement of Jesus regarding John the Baptist being Elijah returned. For me, it couldn't be any plainer. He didn't say that someone like Elijah had come, but that Elijah himself had returned, and that no one had recognized him (not even John, himself). John the Baptist not remembering is only part of his being a "stumbling block" to Christ's mission.

But even the statement of Jesus about living by the sword implies reincarnation. There are so many who do not apparently die by the sword by which they had lived. One important solution to this enigma is that of reincarnation.

Numbers 14:18 also implies reincarnation. In fact, the inclusion of only the third and fourth generation offers even stronger support for this. This is the time needed for the perpetrator to live out their life, to die, be born again of the flesh and grow up to an age where they will appreciate the boomerang they had thrown. Only the guilty pay for their crimes; not innocent children! That's reincarnation; and that's karma.

The spiritual and immortal nature of man as suggested by Genesis 1:26 implies reincarnation if only because God would want his spiritual children ("flesh of His flesh") to have every possible opportunity to return to Him.

Perhaps a more visceral and, for me, compelling reason to accept reincarnation is the fact that ego tends to become more stubborn with knowledge gained through secular means. A criminal who has hardened their heart to compassion and spirituality may die unrepentant. In the next life, when they are dying by the sword by which they had lived in their prior life, they may question their fate. This is a perfect opportunity for their heart to soften. Their ego is no longer bolstered by the arrogance of a life spent selfishly taking. They may thus ask, "Why God is this happening to me?" And with this, the door is open for an answer.

Just because so many people do not have memories of past lives does not mean they do not exist. There are a great many Jews who believe in reincarnation--the Jewish mystics, whose brethren included the "Tree of Life" in two chapters of Genesis. John the Baptist could not remember being Elijah, but Jesus could.

Rod Martin Jr (author) from Cebu, Philippines on February 08, 2012:

@vector7, thanks for your comments. Did you really mean "everything" when you talked about my imagination? Such generalities are typically ugly, founded in ego.

If you had finished reading, you would have found, "If there is anything you take from this, let it be a message of 'questioning your own authority.'"

The object lesson is one of humility.

The "only begotten Son" of God? Absolutely. No disagreement. So, what am I really saying?

That David was a sinner, what does that prove? His love of God was so great that God still loved him as a son. How much time was there between the death of David and the birth of Jesus? Does this give enough time for that one Holy Spirit to redeem himself?

And are you being "ugly" by what you are feeling when you respond? Any ugliness comes from the master of this world--ego. Interpretation of scripture has fallen to ego for at least 1500 years, ever since the political machinations of one emperor made free inquiry illegal. I am thankful for your response, though. You bring up some important issues.

Certainly, my imagination is suspect. My ego is worse. But the Holy Spirit trumps these.

Wasn't Jesus also a faithful servant of God? He said that he and the Father were one, but he never said that he is the Father. He serves the Father, as we should serve Christ. What does "one with" really mean?

Rod Martin Jr (author) from Cebu, Philippines on February 08, 2012:

@www.lookseenow, thanks for the verse. But what does it really say? Is it talking about the body that the soul of David inhabited? And what is that body except a temporary vessel?

Pedro Morales on February 08, 2012:

vector7 you should not stop reading a post because it makes parallels between David and Jesus. Biblical scholars have learned that Jewish writers used a literary technique called typology. check out the following link:

one line from the above source reads: Typology is significant because it is used so often in the New Testament, and this means that understanding this interpretive practice can deliver us from wrong conclusions regarding what the New Testament claims about the Old Testament.

If you make a search on Google you will get many other resources on the topic.

I disagree with reincarnation, but I think that a more objective way to critic a fellow contributor is better.

www.lookseenow on February 07, 2012:

Please indicate who you are adressing, is it the writer of the post?

vector7 on February 07, 2012:

I stopped my reading at the realization that you were literally parralleling David with my Lord Jesus Christ. You are really throwing everything your imagination can carry in the mix, and I, kindly, disagree completely.

Jesus Christ is the "only begotten Son" of God my friend.

The most well known Holy Bible verse in all the world today lays claim against your notion friend. I am not here to be ugly, but to shed light upon the Truth of the matter as politely as I can.

David IS NOT Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God. David was SELF ADMITTEDLY a wretched sinner, and that too lays claim against the legitimacy of this claim.

Jesus Christ was Jesus Christ the Son of man as spoken of in the book of Daniel, and Jesus spoke of Himself with that very title.

The post above is also correct, and to conclude Jesus Christ is the Lord who is David's Shepherd, and the King of kings Jesus Christ claimed to be the Good Shepherd, while king David said he was a servant of God, Christ Jesus said He was God with us.

www.lookseenow on February 07, 2012:

David was buried and is still dead, but awaiting a resurrection. Concerning the family head David, this Bible verse proves it that he both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day. (Acts 2:29)

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