Skip to main content

1 Corinthians 15:28 - Jesus Subject to the Father?

Is this TRUE?

Is this TRUE?

The Big Question?

I’ve spent tons of hours reading and studying scripture and anything and everything I could find on the internet, commentaries, etc. to help me understand and reconcile the subjection of the Son to the Father found in 1 Cor 15:27-28:

  • “For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

I happen to believe Jesus IS God. I believe He was God in the flesh, known as the Son of God/Son of Man, because He was born of a human mother. The root of His name, Jesus, is Hebrew, Yehowshuwa, meaning YHWH Saves. Through the Son, God made the Way (John 14:6), the Gate/Door (John 10:7) for man to be reconciled back to Him, so that one day the world will be as it was in the beginning, before the fall of Adam and Eve: God and man in perfect union.

While the Bible states, “For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (1 Cor 15:25) this indicates there will be an end to the reign of Christ, when indeed the majority of scholars believe this is speaking of His office as ‘Mediator’, which will no longer be needed after all things are put into subjection under Him; the last enemy to be destroyed is death (physical and spiritual) – vs. 26. There are far too many passages that state clearly that Jesus' kingdom, the kingdom of God, will never end (Luke 1:33; Rev 7:15).

I believe Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15). The Bible tells us God is Spirit (John 4:24). The Bible says no man has seen God (1 John 4:12). Jesus, while in the flesh, revealed God to us in His very nature; therefore, to see Jesus was to see the Father.

  • John 1:18 “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
  • John 14:9 “Jesus said to him, 'Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

 

1-corinthians-1528-jesus-subject-to-the-father

One, Two or Three?

I stopped believing in a ‘trinity’, for if God was indeed three separate persons, the Father would be the first person, the Son the second and the Holy Spirit the third. Since Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, the third person of the trinity would then be His ‘father’, not the first person of the trinity. "God in three persons; blessed Trinity" is not in the Bible, but in a hymn written in the 18th century by a Catholic priest.

Looking back at the Old Testament, God said we were not to worship any other god besides Him (Ex 20:3-5), so to worship Jesus as another ‘god’ would be sin. God said there is “no Savior besides Me” (Is 43:11; 45:21; Hosea 13:4), so to accept Jesus as the Savior, but not accept Him as the LORD God Himself, would be sin.

How is it then, that 1 Cor 15:28 states “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all"?  Compare this with Col 3:11 “a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.”

1-corinthians-1528-jesus-subject-to-the-father

Manifestations of God

We know that God manifested Himself in many forms in the Old Testament:

Adam and Eve heard the sound of Him walking in the garden (Gen 3:8). This would indicate God had legs.

Hagar saw the Angel of the LORD, the LORD God (Gen 16:13)

The LORD God appeared to Abraham as a man with two of his angels, also in human form (Gen 18:2; 19:1).

God appeared to Jacob as a man and wrestled with him all night (Gen 32:24, 28, 30). Do you find it interesting that Jacob said he had 'seen God' in vs. 30?

God appeared to Moses as the ‘Angel of the LORD’ in the burning bush to give him the commandments (Ex 3:2). Compare this to Jesus’ statement to “Keep My commandments” in John 14:15.

God stood on the rock at Horeb that gave water to the Israelites in Ex 17:6. 1 Cor 10:4 tells us that rock was Christ.

Scroll to Continue

God later appeared to Moses to give him the second set of commandments, and yet Moses was not to look upon His form (Ex 33:23).

God appeared as clouds by day and fire by night to the Israelites (Num 14:14).

God appeared as the Angel of the LORD to Joshua (Josh 5:13; 6:2)

Go appeared as the Angel of the LORD to Gideon (Jud 6:11, 14)

God appeared to Manoah and his wife, the parents of Samson in Jud 13 (vs. 22).

Isaiah saw the King, the LORD of hosts (Isa 6:1-5; compare to Rev 4:8)

In addition to these examples, The Old Testament states that God has:

Eyes: Amos 9:8.

Ears: Isa 5:9; 59:1; Jam 5:4.

Nose: Job 4:9; Isa 65:5.

Mouth: Is 1:20; Micah 4:4; Mat 4:4; Job 40:9.

Voice: Ex 19:19.

Face: Gen 19:13; 1 Sam 26:20.

Arms and hands: Job 40:9; Ps 44:3; 77:15; 89:10, 21;136:12; Jer 21:5.

Finger: Ex 8:19; 31:18; Deut 9:10; Luke 11:20.

Feet: Nahum 1:3; Zech 14:4; Rev 1:15-16.

Inward parts: Isa 16:11.

Speaking of the finger of God, His finger wrote the first set of the 10 Commandments (Deut 9:10). Yet, in Luke 11:20 Jesus stated He cast out demons by the finger of God.

The Jews, the 'first-born son of God' (Ex 4:22; Jer 31:9), were around much longer than the 'trinity' doctrine. They knew God as Father, knew His Spirit and witnessed Him in the form of man (to Abraham and Jacob) and the word 'Elohim' had been around since Genesis 1:1; never did they split God into persons. NEVER. Why does the last church age do this? Look up Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus and the Johannine Comma (how it was inserted into the Latin Textus Receptus from which all our Bibles are translated) to give you a clue.

Bottom line is, any manifestation of God is His Christ (Acts 3:18; 4:26; Rev 11:15; 12:10), aka Jesus, or His Angel (Gen 3:8; Ex 3:2; Josh 5:13; 6:2; Jud 6:11, 14; 13:21-22), aka Jesus. Even the rock at Horeb was His Christ (Ex 17:6; 1 Cor 10:4), aka Jesus. Likewise, in the New Testament the flesh and blood of the Son was God with us, Immanuel (Mat 1:23) ~ Jesus (Mat 1:21). Isaiah said the son (flesh) is Mighty God [El] and Everlasting Father (Is 9:6) ~ He is the Great "I AM".

John 20:28 "Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!'"

John 20:28 "Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!'"

The Resurrected Jesus, the Christ

Because we know flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50), any appearance of God in the Old Testament would not have included carnal flesh and blood. However, He chose to be born through the virgin Mary, in order to shed His holy blood for our sins. Several of the original disciples/apostles referred to Jesus as “God and Savior” (1 Tim 1:1; Tit 2:13; 2 Pet 1:1). The prophets called the LORD God ‘God and Savior’ (Is 45:15; Mic 7:7). Also, read many more passages, such as 1 Chr 16:35, Ps 65:5; Hab 3:18 ~ so many.

After His resurrection, Jesus appeared in the very body He died in (flesh and bone). Yet, He appeared in the locked upper room with His disciples twice (went through walls?), and appeared in ‘another form’, too (Mark 16:12). Is this not consistent with God?  What happened to the body in which He was resurrected while He appeared in 'another form'?  Only God can do this!  We are told that our bodies will be changed upon the ‘catching up’ or rapture, and that our resurrected bodies will not corrupt or perish (1 Cor 15:52). Our new bodies will not be ‘flesh and blood’, else it would contradict 1 Cor 15:50.

Speaking of His resurrection, we know Jesus, the Christ of God appeared to His disciples, walking on the waves of the sea (Mat 14:24-25). Now, let's go back to Job 9:8 to see what is said about God: "Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea."

READ REV 14:14-16

READ REV 14:14-16

God: The King of kings, the LORD of Lords

Okay, back to the ‘submission of Christ’ to ‘the Father’. The Bible tells us Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:1), that through Him all things were created (John 1:3 ~ that would include man), that He is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15) and that He is submissive to the Father (John 14:10-11 and of course, 1 Cor 15:28). I know I wondered how the Spirit of God [El] could make man (Job 33:4), but now that I understand He has a form in Christ, I don’t have questions.

Basically, just as our bodies perform what is in our mind, will and emotions, God’s soul (Is 42:1; Heb 10:38), Spirit (Luke 23:46; John 4:24), mind (Is 43:25; Rom 8:27), heart (Ez 28:2, 6) and voice (Zeph 3:17; John 1:1) is manifest in the person of Jesus Christ (KJV - Job 13:8; Heb 1:3). He submits to the will of the Father, for the Father (the Holy Spirit) is in Him and He in the Father (the Holy Spirit). After the last enemy of death and all evil forces are destroyed, we the saints will see God in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus will rule as the King of kings and Lord of lords (Rev 19:13-16), yet we will reign with Him.

  • 1 Tim 6:15 “God, the blessed and only Ruler [Sovereign; Potentate], the King of kings and Lord of lords
  • Rev 5:10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

Jesus' subjection to the Father is to think and do the will of the Father (the Holy Spirit) in Him (John 12:49; 14:10; 1 Cor 2:11). Likewise, the Spirit in us will give eternal life to our new bodies and we will do the will of Him in us!! (Rom 8:11; John 3:18). Thus, we will be back to the way it was in the beginning: God and man. We will see and communicate with God in the person of Jesus Christ.

1-corinthians-1528-jesus-subject-to-the-father

Flip-Side

Now, in my studies I considered a ‘flip side’ to this coin. The main reason is not only what the scriptures reveal, but the current office of 'Mediator' indicates submission to the Father (the Holy Spirit) even now, so when that office ends, a future subjection doesn't seem to reconcile. When I thought further about this present 'mediation', I pondered how the Spirit of Christ (God) intercedes for us while we are yet in sinful flesh (Heb 7:25). The answer: in us and through us (Rom 8:26; 1 Tim 2:1; ponder 2 Sam 2:25). Truly, this 'mediation' will no longer be needed when sinful flesh and the Adversary no longer exist.

The Bible says that everything is already subject to Christ (Mat 28:18; 1 Pet 3:22).

To give you a hint of the 'flip side', consider that God placed everything under the feet of man in the beginning (before the fall). If you read Gen 1:28, Dan 7:13-14 interpreted in 22, 26-27, Ps 8:4-9 and Heb 2:5-9 this might shed more ‘Light’ on the subject.

Lastly, compare the following two passages (1 Cor 15:27-28 and Rev 21:7):

1 Cor 15:27-28 “For He hath put all things under his feet. But when He saith, all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son [huios] also himself [autos] be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” I have added capitalization to this KVJ passage, to see more clearly what the flip-side is.

The word 'Son' is indeed capitalized, even in the KJV. That denotes divinity. In our resurrected state, we shall be immortal and divine. Now, notice the English words ‘Son’ and ‘himself’ are the Greek words “huios” and “autos”. Now, look at Rev 21:7 (spoken by Christ Jesus): ”He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he [autos] shall be my son [huios].“ This is speaking of the saints. It is really important to read Daniels vision in 7:13-14 and the interpretation given by the angel in vs. 22, 26-27. It is clear that the 'Son of Man' represented/represents the "saints of the Most High".

I could write an entire hub on the ‘flip side’, which would basically conclude that Christ intends to put all things under the feet of man again; however, not all things are yet put under man’s authority (due to the existence of the sinful flesh and the Adversary). All things being subject to man would exclude Christ, who put all things under him. When the grave is overcome, evil is disposed of, and all things are finally subject to the saints (we who overcome, who are the ‘son’ mentioned in Rev 21:7), we will be fully subject to Christ so that He may be all in all.

Again, let me leave you with Col 3:11 “a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

  • Let Me Tell You WHO GOD IS!
    Who is GOD? WOW. What a concept to try to wrap our human brains around! Ive read all kinds of interpretations of the trinity and some of the scriptures cause confusion as to exactly how we are to interpret the entity of God Himself.
  • Soul, Spirit, Mind and Heart
    Man is fearfully and wonderfully made in Gods image! God has a soul, spirit, mind and heart, just like we do! Only our Creator can powerfully minister to each separately and yet bring wholeness within us because of Jesus Christ.

Comments

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on December 25, 2017:

Hi Samuel, I believe in one God, not a tri-unity of plural godhead. God is Spirit, the Holy Spirit, who is invisible and omnipresent. Just as He could appear to Abraham (with two of His angels) in Gen 18:22, though there He was immortal, He could take on a Temple of flesh and blood and be the Last Adam and the Almighty God at the same time. I have many articles on this subject and encourage you to visit more of them. Thank you, and bless you.

Samuel Ihegbu Yarborough from Nigeria on December 03, 2017:

Am not sure I clearly understand your argument here.

Are you for or against the trinity teaching.

Which is: 'The father is God, the son is God, the holy spirit is God. They are co equal. Co internal and co existing, yet there is no three Gods but One'?

Are you for or against this teaching?

Before saying anything about this your article let me know your stand

Oscar Jones from Monroeville, Alabama on May 25, 2014:

Wow , a lot of reading here! I guess I am reading all of your hubs! yes the very basis of the rejection of Jesus by the Jews was that they denied that he could be the Jehovah they were looking for. They could have accepted him except that he said Israel I am your God come in the flesh.. Isaiah says it plainly enough. Chapt: 45-53 Israel knew only one Supreme God. Every other nation feared that Almighty and powerful "I AM that I AM: Jesus claimed to be that same God come in the flesh. But Jehovah pre-told them in ISAIAH who it would be, (Isaiah 9:6 and Col: 2:9) and that Jesus WOULD be that true God. Jesus said to them, "You would have accepted me in another name."

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on May 25, 2014:

Hi azorilla12 - thank you for your comment, and I'm blessed to know you do not hold to "God in three persons, each not the other, but all are God" - that's kind of like "Tom, Dick and Harry are three persons, each not the other, but all are human". Praise God!

You stated, "it is not prophesied that the Father will come on the 2nd coming." Yet, you also posted Rev 4:8 (which is a cross-reference to Rev 1:8) "...LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, (which was, and is, and is to come.)" and then you posted the second half of Rev 1:8 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death", but left out the first half of Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and Omega". To put these scriptures together, let's read Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:"

Here we see Jesus is the Almighty (Rev 4:8), the Alpha and Omega (Rev 1:8) and the First and the Last (Rev 2:8) who was dead and come to life and is He who was, is and is to come. Let's now go back to Isa 44:6, which bears witness to these statements of Jesus:

"This is what the LORD [YHWH] says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Regarding the vision John had of the Lamb in the midst of the throne, this Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes (we know Jesus as the Son of Man did not look like a literal, slain lamb having seven horns and seven eyes). This is a symbolic vision of the Last Adam, the first-born from the dead (the bodily resurrection) and of many brothers and sisters born again by faith in Him. The seven horns and seven eyes are representative of the seven churches of Revelation (seven means complete, not literal). I have written on this topic in my hub, "The Seven Spirits of God: The Flame of the Menorah": https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/...

John was told to write the things which he saw (past) - and he certainly saw Jesus crucified - the things that are (present) and the things to come (future), so we can't declare this vision of the Lamb slain with the horns and eyes is a future event. Some believe the first seal was opened as soon as Jesus said, "It is Finished" and took His last breath. Judgment upon Satan's kingdom was implemented that very moment. Gen 3:15 "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

I trust you will find this helpful. Blessings to you!!

azorilla12 on May 20, 2014:

very nice hub my friend :) we're on the same state proving that Jesus was the GOD(YHWH) Himself.. the Most High, the God of the old testament, The LORD of Hosts^^ i can share a strong evidence which we can see on the book of Revelation 4:8 - "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, (which was, and is, and is to come.)"

which is = I am he that liveth

which was = and was dead

which is to come = and behold I am alive forever more

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

And we all know that Jesus is the one who is to come.. he stated it when he is about leave the apostles, It is not prophesied that the Father will come on the 2nd coming.. But it is clear and exact that Jesus is the One who is to come, So the ONE who sits on the Throne is no other than JESUS CHRIST..

but im a little bit confused on Revelation 5:6-7

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

It shows that we have two Jesus Christ?.. I know im wrong in this statement, but as a person with limited mind, I can't understand this verse :) it's just what I think when I imagine the situation in this verses.. the ONE who sits on the Throne, and The Lamb that has an indication that He was slain.. So ONE version of CHRIST(one who sits) which is the PURE and the ORIGINAL FORM of Jesus before he came to the earth.. and one LAMB that was slain which is the mixed identity of God and man(the GODMAN). I know im wrong, this is just my perception.. this is not exactly what it is, only our GODJESUS can explain all of these clearly and exactly. My Faith is in JESUSCHRIST - The Almighty GOD, The LORD of Hosts, The MOST HIGH, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. Our Father and Saviour :) I believe in the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.. I believe in Trinity but i don't believe the other concept or version of trinity explaining that Father is not the Son and the Holy Spirit.. I believe that these 3 are just titles, literally ONE BEING, ONE PERSON.

Jesus Said "Surely I come quickly."

Amen and Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. We will wait for You our ONLY GOD JESUSCHRIST.

May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on March 18, 2013:

Thank you, Juniperina! I'm glad you are enjoying what you're reading in the hub and the comments! This is a fascinating subject ~ and I praise God, our LORD Jesus Christ, who truly is your King and Lord and God!! Amen~thank you again!

Eva Söderholm from Naantali, Finland on March 18, 2013:

Very interesting and inspiring article and comments... So much to read and think about that had to add to my IE favorites... for to come back soon and learn more about Jesus... who truly is my King and Lord and - God.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on March 17, 2013:

Truthseeker, Wow, quite a list of questions in all those passages, and I will answer each one as ‘briefly’ as possible, and for the benefit of others who may have the same questions.

Proverbs 8:22 is speaking of Wisdom, not the Holy Spirit as a created 'Person'. Wisdom is an attribute of the eternal Spirit given to Solomon and is ‘personified’ as female.

Rev 3:14 Let’s look at the Aramaic Bible translation: “And to The Messenger of the assembly of the Laidiqians write: “Thus says The Eternal, The Trustworthy and True Witness, and The Source of The Creation of God:” This is not stating The Eternal, The Trustworthy and True Witness, the Source IS The Creation of God, but rather He is the Source of the creation (all things) of God.

I’m not sure what Jes 14:14 is? I checked Jeremiah 14:14, but this does not go along with your line of questioning, what I assume is, the ‘three persons’ of the ‘Godhead’ (Deity in the Greek).

Regarding Satan wanting a position at the side of the Almighty, you will have to prove this statement scripturally. It is nowhere in scripture. If you adhere to the traditional teaching that ‘Lucifer’ the cherub in Isaiah 14 is Satan, you also cannot prove that by scripture. How do I know? I studied to prove Lucifer is Satan, and frankly, found out otherwise. I actually wrote about my study results, using every passage traditional teaching uses to support their traditional teaching. I invite you to come and read: “Is Lucifer the Devil?”: https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/...

Jacob and Esau have nothing to do with Satan. If you are looking at the doctrine of election, I invite you to read my hub “God’s Sovereignty: Jacob & Esau”: https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Gods-Sove...

Regarding Heb 1:4-6, let’s go back to vs. 3 (Aramaic bible) “For He is The Brilliance of His glory, The Image of His Being, and upholds all things by the power of His word; and He in His Essential Being has accomplished the purification of our sins, and He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.” What is the Majesty? Look up Elohim (H430) and realize it consists of angels and magistrates ~ even ‘sons of the Most High’ (believers) as shown in Ps 82:6; John 10:34. And, keep in mind, ‘Right Hand’ is an idiom for POWER (Ex 15:6; Ps 89:13; Heb 1:3, 8; Mat 27:29).

Heb 1:4 (Aramaic) “And This One is altogether greater than the Angels, according to how much more excellent than theirs is The Name which He possesses. For to which one of the Angels did God ever say, “You are My Son; today I have begotten you”, and again, “I shall be to Him The Father and He shall be to Me The Son” [fulfillment of Ps 2:7]? Again, when He brings The Firstborn into the universe, He says, “All the Angels of God shall worship Him.” [fulfillment of Ps 97:7 – note in Ps, the word ‘Elohim’ is used for the angels].

This is speaking of God coming in the flesh. It does not say there were two or three persons prior to the incarnation. As the Son of Man, Jesus was named Emmanuel, God with us, and as John 1:1 and 14 say, “God was the Word” and “the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.”

Dan 7:13-14 are interpreted by the angel in vs. 22, 26-27. So many read Dan 7:13-14 with their indoctrinated understanding, rather than accepting the interpretation given by the angel in that very same chapter. Pretty amazing, isn’t it?

To answer John 1:18, read John 14:7 “If you had known Me, you also would have known My Father, and from this hour you do know Him and you have seen Him.” And vs. 9 “Yeshua said to him, “All this time I am with you and you have not known Me Phillip? Whoever has seen Me has seen The Father, and how do you say, 'Show us The Father'?” Consider all those who claimed to have ‘seen God’ in the Old Testament, and lived (i.e. Gen 32:30; Jud 13:22)! How do we ‘see’ God? Through His manifestations. If you would like to see all these passages, I invite you to read my hub “The Manifestation of God: Old Testament”: https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/...

Regarding Ex 33:23, I answer with 2 Cor 4:6 “For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on March 17, 2013:

Hi John! Mat 16:15-17 – Yes, Yeshua was the Son of Man/Son of God in the flesh. This same Peter later wrote in 2 Pet 1:1 “Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”

John 20:17 Yeshua was still in the Son of Man/Son of God ‘form’. Likewise, in the first three chapters of Revelation, He speaks in the same way. However, if you look at the following passages, which are indisputable, we can see Who Yeshua clearly is:

Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The First and the Last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:” Here Yeshua is speaking, obviously.

Compare to Isa 44:6 “This is what YHWH says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, YHWH Almighty: I am the First and I am the Last; apart from Me there is no God.”

Likewise, we can look at Isa 44:24, which states “Thus says YHWH, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, YHWH, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,”

Compare to John 1:3 (speaking of Yeshua) “All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.”

God is not “three persons sharing one substance”, amen.

Rom 9:5 sums it up beautifully (Aramaic Bible): “And the Patriarchs; and from them The Messiah appeared in the flesh, who is The God Who is over all, to Whom are praises and blessings to the eternity of eternities, amen.”

Thank you, and God bless you.

Truthseeker on March 17, 2013:

How do you explain the folowing: Proverbs 8:22, Rev.3:14, Heb1:14, Jes 14:14(Question: ????? satan wanted a position at the side of the Allmighty, he could never ever challenge HIS position as such as the supreme but wanted the 'chosen' postion at HIS side: refer to Esua and Jacob: Heb 1:4-6: satan himself was created as an angel), Dan7:13&14, John1:18, Ex33:20-23.

Hope to hear from you, we are entering serious times for the seekers of the truth!

John on March 03, 2013:

People believe what they make up their minds to believe.!!

There is so many explicit verses in which Christ tells us who he is -

-Matthew 16 verses 15-17

-John 20v17

and you keep repeating verses which can be argued (eventually )in favour of Unitrarianism.

If a=b and

b=c then

a=c

If Christ = God and

God = three persons sharing one substance

then Christ = three persons sharing one substance-which is a contradiction.

I have just been looking at Roman 9v5 and according to the Trinitarian view "Christ is God over all"... which elininates the possibility of Jesus as a 'person' of God.

Lots more like that!The Doctrine of the Trinity is simply not scriptural - nor is it comprehensible or logical.

Best Wishes

John B

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 19, 2013:

Hi Question All, Thank you for coming back and reading my lengthy responses to your commentaries. While these things are deep, they simply cannot be summarized in a paragraph or two, amen?

1 Tim 4:10 "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

I say Exodus (Old Testament) is God concealed, while John (New Testament) is God revealed. Just as the Law (Old) was a 'shadow' of the Grace revealed in Jesus Christ (New) - Col 2:17; Heb 10:1

In my first response to you I said, "I recommend you start with “The Manifestations of God: Old Testament” and proceed with its sequel for the New Testament. This would be good, for it will also address your commentary about whether or not two or three Persons manifested “themselves” in the Old Testament, even in the New." I take it you haven't found the links, so I will provide them here.

https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/...

https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-FORM-...

This will provide a wealth of scriptural evidence and be more than sufficient to answer your question about Exodus 33:20. John 6:46 is just the "tip of the iceberg" (now, there's an idiom for you! Jews, even Jesus, loved using idoms).

Hope to see you there. God bless you!

Question All on February 18, 2013:

Thanks for considering my lengthy comments. We seem to reference many of the same Bible verses but have different understandings of them. I won’t belabor them, but I do think you have an inconclusive argument in regard to Ex 33:20/John 6:46. You countered the verses with 2 Cor 4:6 and John 14:9. These verses state apparent contradictions. Two say you can’t see God/ no one has. The other verses say God is seen.

I have the impression that you dismiss the Ex 33:20/John 6:46 verses because of the contradiction. I am not comfortable with that kind of argument. There are other apparent contradictions in the Bible. I believe that when there is an apparent contradiction in scripture; we need to look harder for a deeper understanding. I reconcile the verses as referring to different entities in the Triune God. I do not see how you can reconcile the contradicting verses with one God of one entity. Would you explain how you interpret Ex 33:20?

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 16, 2013:

If you read not only the hub, but the comments/rebuttals, too, PapawStan? I'd have to deem you my BEST reader!! Wow. Yes, sometimes in the flesh I wish not to spend so much time and energy, but my spirit is willing by the Spirit's prompting and His willingness to give me the words/direction and enabling me to write what He shows me the best I can (and in summary, which can in itself end up a short 'book'!). I praise God for you, as you are such a blessing to me, and if a blesing to me, what a blessing to Him!

PapawStan on February 16, 2013:

I don't know what I enjoyed the most about this article, the article itself or the rebuttals! God Bless You! That takes a lot of time and effort in research on your part! God is Blessing you and your readers!

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 16, 2013:

(continued from above) Regarding Joshua 8:14 of course He is the LORD and is therefore the Commander of His own army, the Army of the LORD. What is prophesied in Rev 19:13-14? “And He wore a garment soaked with blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the army of Heaven were joined to Him on white horses and were wearing linen white and pure.” You can obviously see Jesus in the Old Testament; where you’re missing the mark is to think He’s the “Son” of God there (as though a separate Person) and not God Himself!

And finally, let’s look at what you wrote in conclusion: “To end, I look forward to the day that I see the Son to God’s right just as Stephen saw it as told in Acts 8:55 “But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the GLORY of God (Elohim/Theos), and Jesus standing at the RIGHT HAND of God (Elohim/Theos).” Steven saw the GLORY (invisible substance) of God and Christ at His ‘right hand’, which is symbolic of His POWER. Let’s read Heb 1:3 for greater understanding: “For He is The Brilliance of His glory, The Image of His Being, and upholds all things by the power of His word; and He in His Essential Being has accomplished the purification of our sins, and He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty [Elohim] on high.” Remember what ‘Elohim’ means again? He is YHWH Elohim, the LORD God, our Savior, Redeemer, Shepherd, Teacher, the Spirit our Mediator, the Living God, the Almighty.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 16, 2013:

Hello, Question All ~ so your second comment is to “try and give an alternate understanding of 1 Cor 15:28 that can still fit in with the concept of the Trinity.” This is important because you are doing what so many in ‘churchianity’ do. They don’t want to receive the meaning of 1 Cor 15:28 in context of the scriptural, single Deity, rather they will attempt to use whatever they can to support their pagan idea of the plural Godhead of three, eternal, distinct Persons, each not the other (so Gods) in unity = TRI(3)IN(UN)ITY.

You have stated, “The first thing to understand is that to be one with something does not mean that they are the same.” You have just denied that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same. Just pointing this out, as Trinitarians cannot say they truly believe in ONE GOD, as they claim.

You have stated, “If any are married maybe the illustration of marriage would be helpful.” First of all, we know God the Father is not married to the Son or the Holy Spirit. I realize that’s not what you’re saying, rather to give examples of how ‘echad (Hebrew)’ or ‘heis/mia (Greek)’ mean ‘one in unity’. I would like to answer you on the grounds that even ‘one’ in ‘unity’ are two concepts. One = ONE (singular), while Unity = MORE THAN ONE (multiple) united as ONE (singular). For instance, you can have one (singular) pair (multiple) of shoes. There are two (multiple) shoes in one (singular) pair (set). This does not change the meaning of one (singular). Does this mean we have One (singular) set of Gods (Elohim, plural)? What you must understand in regard to Elohim is, it is defined in the Heb 430 and includes YHWH, His heavenly angels and magistrates and even we as believers, the sons of the Most High (Ps 82:6/John 10:34). Here we have one, unified group of what is called Elohim. However, there is only one YHWH who is the head of Elohim, or what we read as “LORD God”.

A husband and wife are as one pair of people, as in one pair of shoes. So what does it mean then, speaking of numbers, since there are two shoes or two people in a single pair, when God said, “They are no longer two (2), but one (1) flesh.”? (Mat 19:6) God has joined them as one flesh; no longer two. Does this mean God is actually three that are somehow meshed together into one Deity (God)? Again, when God made man in His image, He didn’t create THEM at the same time. Adam was created first and was all alone for quite some time. It was after he named all the animals and realized each had a mate and desired the same, that God made Eve from one (echad/heis) of his ribs (plural). Here we see a single rib taken from a set of ribs. Do you see the concept of echad/heis yet? One thing’s for sure, Eve could not say, “If you have seen me, you’ve seen my husband.” Yet, Jesus DID say, “From NOW on you know Him and have seen Him” (John 14:7) and “If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.” (John 14:9)

Let’s look at 1 Cor 12:12-13, when it is written “we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body.” How many Spirits are there? How many bodies are there? There Is only One Spirit (Eph 4:5), and One Body, the body made up of many believers (plural), while the Spirit is not made up of many spirits.

This brings us to Eph 4. You have a body, right? How many heads do you have? Do not all of your parts make up your Person or is your right arm a separate person from your head? Then we have the concept of ‘head’ when we look at such passages as 1 Cor 11:3 where we see the ‘head’ of every man is Christ and the ‘head’ of the wife is her husband. We can interpret the ‘head’ of Christ is God in two ways: 1) as the Son of Man, He was made lower than the angels and as the Son of Man was subject to God, the Spirit IN Him. 2) We as believers are called the Son of Man in Dan 7 as mentioned in my previous answer to you, and are likewise subject to the Spirit IN us. This Spirit is that of God who is Christ (Rom 8:9) Christ means ‘anointed’ and the word used in this passage is chistou, meaning ‘anointed’, so the ‘head of the anointed’ is God. In light of 1 Cor 15:28 it is we who have all things put into subjection to us by God, who Himself is excepted from that subjection to us. It will be as it was in the beginning, God and man, with man ruling over everything, subjected to the LORD Himself in all things. No more need of a Mediator (1 Cor 15:25).

Let me take it a step further. Who is the Husband to Israel? (Jer 31:32). You probably know that a betrothed man is considered a ‘husband’ in Jewish culture (ref Mat 1:19-20). Who is the Bridegroom to the Church? (Mat 25:5). Are there two Husbands here? Are there two Brides? No. Now, let’s look at the definition of ‘head’ in 1 Cor 11:3. The Greek word used is KEPHALE - head - literally, that part of the body attached to the neck - figuratively, source of being, origin of being. The source of Eve was Adam. The source of Adam was God’s creation of Him. Likewise, the source of the Son of Man as the last Adam was God (the Spirit) through Mary, His mother. Eve is therefore one with her husband, as Adam was one with God, just as Jesus, as the last Adam was one with God. We as the Bride of Christ/God are one with Him. This is what Jesus is saying in John 17:22.

Let’s look at a couple of passages regarding Redeemer, Mediator and Teacher:

Isa 44:6 “This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no God.” There is only ONE Person speaking in this passage. Now reference Rev 2:8 and 22:13.

1 Tim 2:5 Aramaic translation “For God is One, and The Mediator of God and the sons of men is One: The Son of Man, Yeshua The Messiah,” As the Son of Man, God in the flesh, He is our Mediator.

Now, let’s look at what Jesus said to His disciples in John 16:26 “In that day, you will ask in My name, and I do NOT say to you that I shall request from The Father for you.”

We’ve established that we, as the Son of Man, are subject to the Spirit IN us and that Spirit is that of God, who is Christ. This mediation is accomplished until the last enemy of death is destroyed, by the intercession of the Spirit IN us. Rom 8:26-27 “In this way also The Spirit helps our weakness. We do not know what we should pray for, whenever it is necessary, but that Spirit prays in our place with groaning which is unspoken. But He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of The Spirit is, for He is praying according to the will of God in the place of the Saints.”

Mat 23:10 states, “for you have one Teacher, the Christ.” We’ve established “Christ” is the Spirit, the anointing. Now, let’s read 1 John 2:17 “And if The Anointing will remain with you which you have received from Him, you do not need anyone to teach you, but as The Anointing who is from God is teaching you about everything, and is true, and there is no falsehood in Him, even as He has taught you, abide in Him.”

In John 10:14-15 Jesus said “I am the good shepherd; I know My sheep and My sheep know Me— just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father—and I lay down My life for the sheep.” Jesus said this as the Son of Man. Ps 23:1 tells us the YHWH is our Shepherd and Jesus said He Himself is the Good Shepherd. This same Shepherd is He who is in the midst of the single Throne in Rev 7:17. This does not prove the eternity of the ‘Son’, which you should know by the mere fact you quoted Ps 2:7 “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.” As the Son of Man, Jesus became the Son of the Eternal God, YHWH and was the eternal God, YHWH, in the flesh. The ‘eternal Son’ concept is man-made.

Ps 2:7-12 are speaking to the nations in regard to the millennial reign, when we consider “You will rule them with an iron scepter”. The Son of Man (the Messiah) was not in existence at that time, and it is prophetic. The Messiah will sit on David’s throne when He returns as King of kings. Any divine (immortal) manifestation of God is the ‘Son’. So shall we also be immortal, as spoken by Jesus in Rev 21:7 “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son.” (continued

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 13, 2013:

Question All – I see you’ve left me another lengthy comment, and for now, I have only had a couple of hours to spend on answering this one. I am a single Mom and work a full-time job. I will appreciate your patience in my answering you. I pray God receive the glory. I have tried to keep this as brief as possible.

Okay, let’s start with Heb 11:6 and 1 Pet 1:12 THE WHOLE VERSES

Heb 11:6 “But without faith, no one can please God, for whoever is brought near to God must believe that He exists and that He is the rewarder of those who seek Him.”

1 Pet 1:12 “And IT WAS REVEALED to all those who were searching, because they were not inquiring for themselves, but for us they were prophesying of those things belonging to us, which NOW ARE REVEALED to you by those things in which we have evangelized you, by The Spirit of Holiness, who is sent from Heaven, into which things the Angels have also desired to gaze.”

Enough said.

Regarding the Trinity debate and separate hubs? There are MANY. Since you used the word ‘morphe’, I recommend you start with “The Manifestations of God: Old Testament” and proceed with its sequel for the New Testament. This would be good, for it will also address your commentary about whether or not two or three Persons manifested “themselves” in the Old Testament, even in the New.

I stopped believing that God is three, eternal, co-equal ‘Persons’, each not the other, when I was shown the Truth by the Holy Spirit and had my mind opened to understand (interpret) the Scriptures (Luke 24:45). This “verse” was just one of the many things God addressed in teaching me, thus this hub.

What I stated is true. The Jews never split God into ‘Persons’. (Mark 12:29) The GREATEST of ALL Commandments is that the LORD (YHWH) Thy God (Elohim) is ONE (Echad). Considering the greatness of THE CREATOR of ALL things, who created EVERYTHING BY HIMSELF (Isa 44:24) and the many ways He manifested/manifests Himself to us, YHWH Elohim is appropriate. Elohim is also defined as the angels, magistrates and even the ‘sons of the Most High’, the Jews (Israel) in Ps 82:6/John 10:34). If a Hebrew counts to three, as in 1, 2, 3, the number 1 is echad. It is an infinite one. If you consider God took ONE (singular) of Adam’s ribs (plural), the word used there is echad (Gen 2:21).

What does Ps 2:7 tell you? “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” So God became a Father on a particular day. When was that? Jesus is called the only ‘begotten’ Son. Begotten means ‘born’. When was He born in eternity past?

Speaking of John 1:14 what does John 1:1 state? “In the beginning was the Word.” Compare this to Gen 1:1 “In the beginning God created…” Speaking of God creating, which Isa 44:24 declares He did all ALONE, by Himself, what does vs. 3 declare? “Without Him [the Word] was not ANYTHING made that was made.” Now, let’s go to vs. 2: “The Word was WITH God”. The Greek word translated as ‘with’ is ‘pros’, meaning ‘to/toward’, not ‘with’ (as in beside). Since we know Elohim can include angels, magistrates and sons of the Most High, did not the Word come to us? Does He not speak to His heavenly host? The rest of vs. 2, when translated according to the Greek states, “God was the Word.” This is covered in a few of my hubs in more detail. I suggest reading “GOD: Let Us Make Man in Our Image?” The Hebrew actually states, “Said God make man Our image.” Who was He speaking to? What type of image was He speaking of (read the entirety of Gen 1:26)? When God made man in His own image (Gen 1:27), the word image is singular, not plural.

Speaking of Ex 33:20, “you cannot see My face”, read 2 Cor 4:6 “For God', who spoke that light would shine out of the darkness, has dawned in our hearts that we would be enlightened with the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Yeshua The Messiah.”

Regarding John 6:46 “No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father”, let’s read 1 John 4:4 and John 14:9: “You are from God, children, and you have conquered them, because he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.” AND “Yeshua said to him, “All this time I am with you and you have not known Me Phillip? Whoever has seen Me has seen The Father, and how do you say, 'Show us The Father'?”

You said, “God placed everything under the feet of MAN in the beginning” is not supported by the Scriptures.” Let’s read Ps 8:6-8 as a whole, shall we? “You make him to rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet, All sheep and oxen, And also the beasts of the field, The birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, Whatever passes through the paths of the seas.” Who is this speaking of? Go back to Gen 1:28 “God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

You said, “That is not everything. Noticeably absent are the angels.” Well, read 1 Cor 6:3: “Do you not know that we judge the Angels? How much rather those who are of this world?”

Daniel 7:14 is interpreted by the angel in vs. 27. Let’s read both verses:

7:14 KJV “And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

7:27 KJV “And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.”

You might be talking about ‘worship’ in regard to Herod in Acts 12, but he was struck down #1 because he was not a child of God and vs. 22-23 state the people called him god and he did not give praise to the LORD. What if he had given praise to the LORD? We already established that the ‘sons of the Most High’ (believers) are ‘gods’ (Elohim) in 82:6/John 10:34.

We must understand 1 Cor 15:22-25 in light of vs. 28. Yeshua (Jesus), as the last Adam, the firstfruits, is yet our Mediator until the last enemy (Satan/death) is destroyed. Then, we as the Son of Man (ref Dan 7:13/22; Rev 21:7), hand over the kingdom to God, namely the Father (Himself – 2 Cor 5:19)

Rev 21:7 (Jesus speaking) “And he who is victorious shall inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be My son.”

2 Cor 5:19 KJV “That is, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”

You addressed Rev 21:22-23 “I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Here is the Greek breakdown of Rev 21:23 http://biblos.com/revelation/21-23.htm - The Lord God Almighty and the Lamb IS THE temple). Who is the Lord God Almighty? Hub: https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-ALMIG...

Regarding Col 3:1-17 it applies to NOW and ETERNITY.

God bless you, as well.

Question All on February 13, 2013:

I have also been perplexed by the verses in 1 Cor 15 and that is why my searching resulted in me finding this hub. I will try and give an alternate understanding of 1 Cor 15:28 that can still fit in with the concept of the Trinity.

The first thing to understand is that to be one with something does not mean that they are the same. If any are married maybe the illustration of marriage would be helpful. Gen 2:24 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.” Specifically the rite of marriage, the intimate act is a very special example of being one with another.

Another example from scripture where many become one is the description of the church body. 1 Cor 12:12-13 “The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.“ Ephesians 4 further elaborates that Christ is the head of the church body. Verses 15-16 “Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.”

To get an understanding of 1 Cor 15:28 we must ponder what duties the Son was given in this age. Every Christian professes Jesus to be the Christ our redeemer who came to earth as a man, living a perfect life and dying on the cross to pay the price for our sin and purchase our salvation. Another duty is to be a mediator between man and God as described in the hub.

Jesus states one of his duties is to be our teacher in Mat 23 9-10 “And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.”

Jesus stated another duty in John 9:5 “While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” He shows us the way to eternal life.

In John 10:14-15 Jesus said “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.” Note that when scripture uses “I Am” it represents an eternal concept. Therefore scripture is again referring to the Son in Psalm 23 “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.” Confirmation of the eternity of the Son continuing this duty even into heaven is given in Rev 7:17 “For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;”

Look to Psalm 2:7-12 for the first duty given to the Son, “I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.” Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.”

These verses describe the duty of the Son to execute the righteous judgments and wrath of God but to also provide refuge for the saints. This authority to rule the earth is exercised with the helpful servants of God, the angels. The Son is the commander of the angels as told in Joshua 8. A “man” visits Joshua that says he is the Lord. It can only be the Son of God. Verse 14 “… as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Ephesians 6:12 describes the spiritual battle against Satan: “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” We are comforted knowing that the Son is commanding the angels on our side in this unseen battle.

By recognizing these various duties of the Son in this age we can see that some duties may change in the next age when the battle with Satan has been completed. With this mindset we can read the verses in 1 Cor 15 and see the completion of the Son’s ruling over the earth at his 2nd coming. The first earth will be destroyed and the duty and authority to rule over it, fight Satan and protect the saints is relinquished. There is no need for a judge and executer of God’s righteous wrath in the next age. 1 Cor 15:25 states this end of the Son’s reign: “For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.” Even though the Son’s duty to rule the kingdom will end, we know that the kingdom of God continues on forever. It will not need a ruler in the same sense as the current world now needs one but the Son will still be our shepherd.

As far as the subjection of the Son to God[the Father] in verse 28 I will again use the marriage example. Even though scripture says that a husband and wife become one, it also says wives should submit to their husbands. Eph 5:22-23 “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.”

Another example could be how the church body is made up of all different people with different gifts and talents with different levels of importance. Scriptures still say we are one body in Christ.

The concept of multiple entities joined to be one entity even with one entity being above another is congruent with scripture to three levels: 1) husband and wife 2) the church body 3) the Trinity.

To end, I look forward to the day that I see the Son to God’s right just as Stephen saw it as told in Acts 8:55 “But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.”

To all that managed to read through all this I say,

God bless you!

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 13, 2013:

Question All - I will post your lengthy comment and respond most likely tomorrow - no time at the moment to address all that needs to be. Thank you for your patience.

Question All on February 12, 2013:

I am just testing to see if the posts are going up as my lengthy last one seemed to have been lost.

Question All on February 12, 2013:

I am going to start with a warning. Heb 11:6 says [God] rewards those who earnestly seek him and 1 Peter 1:12 says Even angels long to look into these things. While it is commendable to search the scriptures, my advice is to be very careful to not change a foundational belief while trying to come to an understanding of a difficult verse. This is what I see happening in this hub. The hub title is on 1 Corinthians 15:28 but it has morphed into a debate on the Trinity. If the author wants to have a debate on the Trinity then I suggest making that a separate hub. Many other Bible verses should be quoted and arguments made in that debate. If the author thinks that the only way to come to an understanding of this difficult verse is by denying the Trinity, then I suggest more studying needs to be done. I ask this one question of the author, you testify that at one time you believed in the trinity when did you stop believing it, was it because of this verse?

First I want to point out some misstatements in the hub. Hub quote: “never did they split God into persons”, they being the Jews. If you take the Old Testament to be an indication of what the Jews were to believe about God, the most obvious denunciations of the statement are the times the plural word us is used in quotes by God: Gen 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8. There are many other Old Testament verses that reference the plurality of God. The famous passage where the Son receives authority over earth from the Father in Psalm 2:7 “I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”.”

I agree with the hub statement that the many times that Old Testament speaks of God appearing as a man that it was a manifestation of the Son. It was not the same body/man as Jesus even though Jesus is the same Son. John 1:14 describes Jesus as “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

However, scriptures do not agree with your statement that any[every] manifestation of God is His Christ. The most glaring omission in the hub is the account in Exodus 33 where Moses asked to see the Glory of the Lord. Verse 20: But,” he[God] said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” The Lord did allow Moses to see his partial glory. Verses 22-23 “When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

In agreement with this Jesus talking about himself said in John 6:46 “No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.” Since we are allowed to see the Son but not the Father, we must conclude that they are different identities with different qualities. Note how much more glorious we will be in heaven when we will dwell with God and be able to see all his great glory. This paradise will surpass the time of creation even before the fall as never in the history of this earth has man dwelled with the Father.

The hub assertion that “God placed everything under the feet of MAN in the beginning” is not supported by the Scriptures you reference in Genesis, Daniel and Hebrews. Gen 1:28 commands man to subdue the earth and rule over the animals. That is not everything. Noticeably absent are the angels. Also remember that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was clearly off limits. Dan 7 does not support your statement either. Verse 14, “He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.” The “man” that was given this authority cannot be earthly men as it is not allowed that man be worshiped. Note the story in Acts 12 where Herod was worshiped as a god and was immediately struck down and died by an angel of the Lord. Also note that a kingdom is a space. The saints will occupy God’s kingdom but that does not mean that we will rule it.

Heb 2:6-8 is a quote of Psalm 8:4-6. If there was any doubt as to who the “man” was being talked about, the next verse in Hebrews spells it out. Heb 2:9 “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.” This clearly explains that Jesus the Son is the one both made lower and receiving authority, not man.

I agree that the passage 1 Cor 15:28 is a difficult one. If one was trying to get to the truth, a much larger context should be examined than just the two verses 27 and 28. Verses 22-25 “ For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.” Look to 2 Thes 2:8 to be reminded that Satan and death will be destroyed and this age will end by the power of Jesus at his 2nd coming: “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.” If one would like to have an idea of the glory in the next age read Rev 21:22-23 “I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.” Note that the Lord God Almighty or God the Father is the source of light. Jesus the Lamb or the Son is the lamp which is the piece that focuses and directs a light source.

The misquote of Col 3:11 is very misleading. The verses in Colossians 3:1-17 deal with the rules for holy living in this age. The hub quotes verse 11 “a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.” My Bible says “Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all”. The misleading part is to make people believe that the passage applies to the next age instead of this age. Verse 17 concludes the section: “And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.”

While I agree with many of the statements, I disagree with the conclusion. I will put forth my idea on the passage in a following post.

God Bless!

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on December 07, 2012:

Hi Mark, all I have to say is, one cannot overthrow the Father if He is the Father. The Trinity is pagan and thus aligns with the pagan ideas you've mentioned above.

Christ's Lordship will never end because He is the LORD, which is the inserted word in the scripture wherever the name of God was used, Yod Hey Vav Hey (YHVH). Eph 4:5 tells us there is only One LORD.

There is one One GOD. There is only One Father. The titles God and Father are speaking of the same Deity. Jesus Christ was the only 'begotten' (born) Son of God and because He is God Himself, raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19). This is why Acts 13:30 tells us "God raised Him from the dead" and Rom 8:11 states, "And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from dead..." do not contradict, nor do they point to three persons raising Jesus from the dead. And speaking of the resurrected Christ, where was His body when He appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus?

Let's just look at Rom 8:9, for instance "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." Are these two spirits living in us or one Spirit, the Holy Spirit?

I could go into a lot more, but I've written several hubs that should at least cause you to test the "Trinity" concept by the very scriptures we all claim to follow. Here's a couple that I recommend:

Who is the Almighty God? (do you believe there is more than One?)

https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-ALMIG...

God or the Son of God? (is Jesus both or has He always been and forever will be the Son of the 'Father'?)

https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/...

And, if you would like historical evidence that the earliest believers in Christ beheld Him as God Himself (names and quotes), thus they were martyred by the founders of the Trinitarian theology (the RCC), here are quotes contained in this hub:

https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/CALVIN-Mu...

There's more, but you can find them on my Home Page or let me know if you would like more recommendations. God bless you as you press into Him.

Mark.Issa from Sydney, Australia on December 06, 2012:

Hi Judah's Daughter,

While I don't fully agree with you since I believe in the Holy Trinity, however I'd like to weigh in on this topic. For a long time this biblical passage puzzled me until I recently read about the background of the Corinthian Church.

The Corinthian Church was mainly a gentile church, and before they became Christians they worshipped Zeus. According to Greek Mythology Zeus became the supreme god by overthrowing his father Cronus. Also, Cronus himself had become the supreme god by overthrowing his father Uranus. So all Paul was trying to say was that it is not so with Christ and His Father. He was just trying to shift them away from this pagan mindset that believes that one can only become a supreme god by overthrowing his father.

It is also true that this verse refers to the end of Christ's role as a mediator since we will have direct access to the Father in heaven. However, it does not mean that Christ's lordship will end since the Bible says that there is no end for His kingdom and that He is one with His Father and as divine as Him.

God bless you,

Mark

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on April 19, 2012:

Sold Out to Jesus, another Daughter of Judah, you SEE and UNDERSTAND, Praise GOD!! Adam and Eve began on 'The Flip Side' (ruling over everything); their fall brought Emmanuel, our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (2 Pet 1:1; Is 43:11) as the last Adam to clear that holy, narrow path of redemption (John 14:6) for all who will follow Him (Ps 23:1; John 10:14, 27), back to 'The Flip Side' of Gen 1:28; Dan 7:22, 26-27; Ps 8:4-9; Heb 2:5-9; and Rev 21:7!!

This IS the GLORIOUS TRUTH. Yes ~ "If we choose to remain blind when He tries to show us truth I believe we will be judged for it." Let us LOVE the TRUTH (2 Thes 2:19) and REJOICE in the TRUTH (1 Cor 13:6), for He IS the Way, the Truth and the Life (John 14:6), amen!!

Sold Out to Jesus from Indiana on April 19, 2012:

Bravo!! My husband and I came across 1 Cor 15:28 a year or so ago and I read it and then re read it... Isn't it funny how you can read the word and then re read it later and find something new. God's Spirit makes His word alive and true!! But I was astonished that there was hardly anything said about this scripture when I googled it. If we choose to remain blind when He tries to show us truth I believe we will be judged for it. Thankfully He is full of mercy and continues to shine light on the narrow path because without guided steps we will never make it. I love your thirst for truth. God Bless!

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on March 05, 2012:

I am so excited that you KNOW who God IS, kumba! I can't wait to meet you and spend eternity with you!!!

Yes, 'long-suffering' is an attribute of the Holy Spirit in us, praise God. However, I recently wrote to Daniel, as he is hell-bent on trying to convice me that Jesus is not the Father:

"You are a servant of the doctrine you choose to obey (Rom 6:16). God will not strive after you forever (Gen 6:3). Based on Rom 1:25 of which you are guilty (worshiping and serving the creation, rather than ONLY the Creator) vs. 28 tells you there will come a point He hands you over to a depraved mind (adokimos- failing to pass the test, unapproved, counterfeit.) My goal is to follow Jam 5:20: "let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." If you choose not to repent of your 'error', Rom 1:27 warns you will "receive in your own person the due penalty of your error." The word 'error' in both of these verses is the Greek word 'plane', which means 'delusion'.

Speaking of 'delusion', let's now read 2 Thes 2:11-12: "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding [plane] influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged [krith?sin - condemned] who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."

Let us hold fast what we have, so that no one will take our crown, kumba! (Rev 3:11) May we make the most of our time, for the days are EVIL (Eph 5:16). You are a breath (Spirit) of fresh air and Living Water to my soul. God bless you always!!!

kumba on March 05, 2012:

JD i love the way you answerd that Ariel or DT or what else,i love your boldness, and not willing to compromise the truth of God because you don't want to hurt anyone's feeling . Some people are just tools in the hand of the devil, i encourage you to keep up your good works for the Lord Jesus Christ (Jehovah God).Thank you.

Daniel R on March 03, 2012:

I am sending you an e-mail.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on March 02, 2012:

DT, aka Daniel R, aka Ariel, aka Arletta ~ how many of you are there anyhow? A Legion? JK

So you’re ‘satisfied’ with Arian theology. You said, “Truthfully, it hurt to think on the possibility that Jesus wasn’t God”? Somewhere, you made a choice to reject the Truth, or suppress it. Why? Only God knows why. The ‘straying’ you are speaking of has to do with all the variations of the ‘Trinity’ doctrine out there. You are right not to accept that God is three ‘persons’. Now, you’ve gotten to the point of believing Jesus is not God, when the scriptures plainly declare that He is.

Yes, Jesus was begotten of a woman, Mary. God, in the flesh, had a beginning. God in Spirit had no beginning and has no end. Jesus declared in Rev 22:13 NLT (one of your favorite versions) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." We discussed before how many Alpha and Omegas, First and Lasts, Beginning and Ends there are…the answer? Only ONE.

Rev 2:8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of Him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.”

Rev 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Isa 44:6 “This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the First and I am the Last; apart from Me there is NO God.”

The way you describe Jesus is one thing, but the way you describe God (as a separate entity) is another. You make Him out to be the ‘absent Dad’, doing all things by His Son, a separate ‘person’ and not doing anything Himself. God the Father abhors child sacrifice and the Word declares He purchased the Church with His Own blood (Acts 20:28). God would not call child sacrifice an abomination and detestable, and even say it would never enter His mind (Jer 32:35), then turn around and do this for all the world to honor as holy.

You’ve taken YeHhoWsHua off the throne, for we NEVER see ‘Michael’ on a throne. Never. Michael himself would NOT rebuke Satan (Jude 1:9), but Jesus DID rebuke Satan (Mat 16:23; Mark 8:33; Luke 4:8). You’ve taken the LORD GOD OFF HIS THRONE and made Him into a created being, rather than the Almighty Creator of all things, the Creator of the angels! We are NOT to worship and serve the creation. Rom 1:25 “For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and SERVED the creature [created thing(s)] rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.”

You don’t believe Jesus is God and believe He is Michael, a created angel. You then say you ‘SERVE’ BOTH. Let the Word speak to your heart. If it wasn’t for missing the mark, God would not have given man the opportunity and ability to repent (change his mind). You 'repented' from the Truth, and now I ask that you repent to the Truth.

Arletta on March 02, 2012:

a.k.a. Arletta.

Yes, I have gone into in-deep studies on this subject and have prayed about it. I am working on refuting Sam Shamoun and the answeringislam website on my Youtube channel. I am more than willing to share my videos and theological topics with you but only if you are not insistent on holding a sole monopoly on truth.

Of course, I am always thirsty. Only the Arian approach to scripture could ever give me a sataisfying answer though. I kind've had to start letting the whole thing flow together and it truthfully hurt to think on the possibility that Jesus wasn't God but then I realized it was actually that interpretation that strayed most. He is the Son of God, He isn't just called the Son of God. He was begotten and created. It is a beautiful relationship that we cannot reduce to an illusion.

Now, let me explain - Jesus is God's representative. God's chief executive. God's voice. God's spokesperson. God's mouthpiece. God's Son. He is belonging to God but He has thoughts that are different from God's. He can choose to disobey like Lucifer. He can choose to obey. He is also properly titled "Michael". For He challenges those who make themselves equal to His Father. He is the most faithful defender of His Father's throne. He chooses to obey. He works for God and carries out God's duty. He represents God perfectly. It is because of Jesus, God's most prized Son, that Satan is powerless to take the throne of the Father. The Father loves His Son and the Son of God chooses to love His Father by representing Him. When we take this balance of harmony away, we find it is impossible to faithfully and realistically serve both God and Messiah.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on March 02, 2012:

Believe it or not, DT, I had actually typed your initials while replying to Daniel, then thought better of it...the LORD knew. No need to comment under assumed handles, as though I wouldn't answer you. I just won't partake of clanging symbol rhetoric and seething attacks.

Yes, Jesus is like an 'Avatar', God with us, God to us. Not a robot, but God Himself. If you think I'm saying He was just a shell with no humanity: temptations, pain, emotions, weakness, tiredness, hunger, poverty...all those things, you are mistaken (Heb 4:15). He was both God the Spirit (the Father) and the Son of God - Son of Man because He took on flesh that could bleed and die. I've shown you the scriptures; I've shown you the Truth. You have a choice to pray about these things and ask God to confirm them to you or reject this Truth and stubbornly stick with your own understanding.

Prov 3:5-6 NLT "Trust in the LORD with all your heart; do not depend on your own understanding. Seek His will in all you do, and He will show you which path to take." You want to believe He is not God? Or will He show you He is "I AM"? How thirsty are you, or are you already full...

I am yet praying for you, DT...Daniel...aka Ariel...(Mat 5:44). May He open your mind to understand the scriptures (Luke 24:45).

Daniel R on March 02, 2012:

"The works of the Father, the Holy Spirit, were done through Him because He was the house, the temple (John 2:19, 21), the tabernacle, the dwelling place of the invisible God"

I need to say no more here. Your quote says it all. You reduce our Lord to just a robot created by God. That is about as Antichrist and Satanic as they get.

You also know me better as "Ariel" and "DT".

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on March 02, 2012:

Daniel, In the flesh, Jesus was fully subject to the Father as we are. The works of the Father, the Holy Spirit, were done through Him because He was the house, the temple (John 2:19, 21), the tabernacle, the dwelling place of the invisible God. When His flesh died, He did not cease to exist, even for a breath of time. Likewise, believers in Christ will never cease to exist, even for a breath of time and we will be fully subject to Him for eternity.

Jesus didn’t tell His disciples, “You don’t need to see the Father”; He said, “From NOW on you have seen Him and know Him.” He follows with saying “Have I been so long with you and yet you have not come to know Me?” Phillip knew He was the Son of God and asked that the Father be shown to them, but He was standing right there with them. That’s what Phillip missed and what you miss.

Let me give you an example of Antichrist, those deny the Father and the Son: Islam. Allah is not a father for he has no son. This does not mean those who know the Father (Spirit) and the Son (begotten flesh) are One God. For more on comparing Islam with YHVH and eschatology, I invite you to read my hub, “Islam and Revelation”: https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/...

The Son is not eternally begotten (born) as the creed states. Yes, the Son was ‘made a little lower than the angels’. He was created in Mary’s womb. John 1:3 tells us “Without Him [Jesus Christ] NOTHING was made that was made.” Yet, if we go back to Isa 44:24 “Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the One who FORMED YOU FROM THE WOMB, ‘I, the LORD, am the maker of ALL things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF And spreading out the earth all ALONE.”

God is eternal; Jesus is God and for this reason pre-existed Abraham and called Himself “I AM” (Ego Eimi). Job 9:8 tells us of the LORD “Who ALONE spreads out the heavens, and treads upon the waves of the sea.” – He ALONE! Now, let’s see who’s treading upon the waves of the sea in John 6:19 “Then, when they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near to the boat; and they were frightened.” What does Jesus say in the very next verse? “Ego Eimi!”

Rather than write and write and write about proving the identity of the Father/Son here, just click on my name, “Judah’s Daughter” on the upper right corner of the screen here and read some more of my hubs. You may want to start with one of my latest called “The Eternal Son?” https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/...

Daniel R on March 02, 2012:

Here's a website on the whole Hell - Heaven thing.

http://what-happens-when-we-die.com/

And as for John 14:9 - Jesus can say "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father" without claiming to be God or claiming to be the Father. He perfectly represents who His Father is. He always does the works He sees His Father doing. Thus, He is virtually telling Thomas "You don't need to see Him because I perfectly represent Him". You cannot be the one you represent.

Now, a verse that demonstrates that Jesus is not the Father - 1 John 2:22-23. What John is saying is that those who deny a realistic Father-Son relationship are Antichrists. Trinitarians do this when they proclaim the Son has always existed as distinct person with the Father. The Son was created by God (Prov. 8:22, Rev. 3:14, Col. 1:15).

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on March 01, 2012:

So Paul was okay with sharing his conversion experience on the road to Damascus, but not bold enough to say he had a vision of Paradise? Doesn't make sense, Daniel R.

Jesus IS God, and there's only One God: Spirit who manifested in the flesh. His Spirit is omnipresent, just as the Spirit of God/Spirit of Christ lives in all believers today - omnipresent. Jesus could be both in His resurrected form (immortal flesh) and in Paradise (Spirit) at the same time. It is man's lack of Spiritual understanding that compels them to move the comma to FIT their own understanding,,,

I need to do more research on the fact that Jesus is God? You've only read one hub...there's a MULTITUDE. I can't possibly put all that I've researched in just one hub, or even two or three....hope you keep on reading and are able to receive, as God graces you to. It is His will that we come to KNOW Him and be KNOWN by Him. For, there will be those He's created that will hear on that Day of Judgement, "Depart from Me, for I never KNEW you."

Jesus said in John 14:7-9 "If you had KNOWN Me, you would have KNOWN My Father also; from now on you KNOW Him, and have SEEN Him. Philip said to Him, 'Lord [YeHoVaH], show us the Father, and it is enough for us.' Jesus said to him, 'Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to KNOW Me, Philip? He who has SEEN Me has SEEN the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" That's not hard to understand for me...

If you do not 'understand', Jesus said in Mat 13:11 "To you it has been granted to KNOW the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. To those who listen to My teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."

Keep on growing ~ God's not finished with you yet :-) Praise God!

Daniel R on March 01, 2012:

You need to read the entire context of 2 Corinthians 12:2 - Paul did not directly state this was himself because he already had accused himself of boasting.

Now, as for the location of Paradise - this is significant. Since it is in the air this means that the comma in Luke 23:43 has to go after the word today. Otherwise, Jesus was lying to Mary when he said "I have not yet ascended".

Now as for Jesus being God - that's a whole other story and I think you need to do more research on this.

We do know that Jesus is not God the Father.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on March 01, 2012:

Well, Daniel, I'd like you to reference which translations state that Paul was the one caught up to the third heaven (Paradise)...I've not seen one nor ever heard it. Either way, the point of the passage is what it is.

You are not the only one who despises the doctrine of hell. Is it possible the whole doctrine was added to the New Testament? Possibly, considering 'Lucifer' was added and the whole concept of a three-person Godhead (by the RCC).

The Bible, as it is written and translated, shows that Jesus talked more about hell than heaven. What it IS exactly, who knows? You said "separation from God". That would be 'hell' for anyone. So many of us take for granted all that He's created and the age of grace in which we live. Get something straight. God did not MAKE us sinners. He gave us the ability to CHOOSE. I can prove this to you scripturally. Choosing NOT to choose is NOT an option. We will serve one of two M/masters (Rom 6:16).

The Bible points to levels of 'hell' (separation from God perhaps) or levels of 'torment' (emotional anguish perhaps), when it comes to the judgment. For example, Jesus said in Mat 10:14-15 "Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city."

Weren't Sodom and Gomorrah already judged when they were destroyed? There's proof of this destruction, so there's no disputing it happened. Fire and brimstone (inflammable sulpher) are present in volcanic, deep-earth eruptions, and that is exactly what happened.

Even the demons know they yet face a final judgment. Look at Mat 8:29 "And they cried out, saying, 'What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment [basanizó - I examine, as by torture; I torment; I buffet, as of waves] us before the time?'" This same word 'basanizó' is used in Luke 16:23 of the 'rich man in Hades'.

And read Luke 8:31 "They [demons] were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss." The Greek word for 'abyss' here is 'abussos', which is defined "the abyss, unfathomable depth, an especially Jewish conception, the home of the dead and of evil spirits."

The Antichrist (angel of destruction = Abaddon/Apollyon) is to come up from that abyss and go to destruction. Rev 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss [abussos] and go to destruction [apóleia]. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come."

This angel, I believe, is the one the Catholic heirarchy named 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14. That fallen cherub was the king of Babylon then and will be the end-time king of Babylon, the Great Harlot.

I have many hubs on this topic, and though you may despise it, I only teach what is written in the Bible. John 3:17-18 tells us the good news ~ "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is NOT JUDGED; he who does not believe has been JUDGED ALREADY, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

God is both our Judge (One who avenges and condemns) and Savior (One who saves us from that judgment). He is LORD of all creation, including Satan and his demons (Job 2:1). We shall overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our tesimony (Rev 12:11). Without faith in Him, we will not overcome.

Once again, I pray you will reconsider your conclusion. Praise God!

Daniel R on March 01, 2012:

Actually, in 1 Corinthians 12, there ARE some translations that DO clarify that Paul was speaking of himself. Now if you want to serve a god that is fry-cooking people in Hell as of the moment, then feel free to do so. In the meantime, I mock you for it! Why? What kind of god that cares about us would not only make us all sinners, but then also fry-cook us for endless ages in Hell? That is NOT a merciful god. And if it is the god of the Bible than I hope Satan dethrones Christ. Go Satan!

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 29, 2012:

Hi Daniel, one last response before I go to bed for the evening...God bless you.

1 Corinthians 15:50

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption

Answer: (Gen 18:2) YHWH appeared to Abraham in immortal flesh (as He has in His post-resurrected form). For this reason, God, who is our only Savior (Isa 43:11) took on flesh and blood to shed His own blood for our sins (Acts 20:28), for without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins (Heb 9:22). Corruptible flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, for we will be incorruptible, immortal when that inheritance is handed over to us (Dan 7:27).

1 Corinthians 15:45

And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Answer: As I stated, “our spirits never die, while our flesh does (made in the image of God).” Jesus was God in the flesh. He existed in the form (Greek word ‘morphe’) of God, also in the form (schema) and likeness (homoioma) of man. God is Spirit (John 4:24) and is invisible (Col 1:15). His Spirit indwelt the flesh of the Son (Col 2:9). While His flesh literally died on that cross, His Spirit never died; nor, does ours.

Hebrews 5:7

who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,

Answer: He became one of us, you and me. He was made a little lower than the angels, remember? He was tempted and tried in every way as we, even beyond (Heb 4:15). He overcame what the first Adam could not – to make the Way, to lead the Way, to be the Way.

You stated, “As for the "physical" moments that Jesus had after the resurrection, we must understand that Jesus was raised as a particular type of spirit-being that COULD take on flesh. The angels who Lot washed the feet of in Genesis - these were spirit-beings that could take on flesh-form.” This is confirmed in my first answer to you regarding 1 Cor 15:50 above. Amen.

Regarding 2 Cor 12:2-4, Paul would have said he was talking about himself, if he was. Even if he did experience such a thing, he didn’t know whether he was ‘in the body or out of the body’ when experiencing such inexpressible things. However, he WAS in the body to tell of his experience, amen! Remember Paul said, “absent from the body is to be home with the LORD.” (2 Cor 5:8)

In John 11:12, the Greek word for ‘sleep’ is koimaó from NG2749, which means ‘sleep, fall asleep, die’. Your question tells me you think as the disciples did when He used that word. Look at the confirmation of this in verse 13: “Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.” Now, vs. 14 clarifies, “So Jesus then said to them plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead’ [apothnéskó - dead].” Yes, Lazarus was as dead as Jesus was when He was placed in the tomb. Lazarus was literally raised from the dead just as Jesus was. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (though NOT immortal), just as He raised Himself from the dead, immortal (John 2:19-21). What's incredible is He could appear and disappear (John 20:26). He appeared in another form (morphe) to the two men on the road (Mark 16:12; Luke 24:15, 31) and later appeared to Saul (Paul) as invisible, yet speaking (Acts 9:3-4) ~ "And God said..." (Gen 1:3) ~ Amen ~ the Word was made flesh! (John 1:14) ~ Hallelujah!

Ecc 12:7 tells us, “then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.” Understand that the Spirit of God in Jesus never died. His flesh died. His Spirit was alive to raise His body from the dead ~ yes, a spiritual, immortal body ~ He is alive! Likewise, our spirit will not die ~ ever. Our body will die and at the appointed time of the resurrection, our spirit and immortal body will be united, just as it was with Jesus Christ. Amazingly true!

Think of Moses and Elijah standing with the LORD Jesus on the mount of transfiguration! We know Moses died (Jude 1:9) and the resurrections are yet to come! I pray this ministers to you! Rejoice!!

Daniel R on February 29, 2012:

I believe Jesus's words in John 11:26 are 100% true. However, I do not believe Jesus meant what you say He meant. I believe He was referring to the fact that we will not be separated from God.

And no, I do not believe Jesus was physically resurrected. Here is why:

1 Corinthians 15:50

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:45

And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Hebrews 5:7

who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,

As for the "physical" moments that Jesus had after the resurrection, we must understand that Jesus was raised as a particular type of spirit-being that COULD take on flesh. The angels who Lot washed the feet of in Genesis - these were spirit-beings that could take on flesh-form.

As for 1 Corinthians 12, I have always understood it to be Paul making a reference about himself. Strange how one considers themselves a man they know but Paul was a very different man after having that experience.

Now note what Jesus had to say about Lazarus -

John 11:11

These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

Unless you believe that when we sleep our spirits somehow temporarily separate from our bodies than no, death is a state of unconciousness.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 29, 2012:

Hello Daniel, our spirits never die, while our flesh does (made in the image of God). In John 11:26 Jesus said, "everyone who lives and believes in Me will NEVER die. Do you believe this?"

Jesus' body was resurrected from the dead, as He showed Himself to Thomas in John 20:27 "Then He said to Thomas, 'Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.'"

In the next verse, "Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!'"

There will be two resurrections of our bodies, but our bodies will be immortal, incorruptible (just as Jesus' was) - 1 Cor 15:53. We can see these two resurrections in Revelation 20:5-6. The saints are raised in the first resurrection and reign with Christ a thousand years (however long that actually is) ON THE EARTH. Because, at the end of that thousand years, Satan is released from his prison (the pit/Sheol/Hades) and gathers the nations (unbelieving nations) to surround the Holy City (Jerusalem) and fire comes from heaven to destroy them all (Rev 20:7-9). After he is judged to the final hell, Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) - Rev 20:10; the second resurrection of the unbelieving dead takes place. They, too, are judged according to their deeds (for they have no Savior) and cast into that final destination where the Antichrist (beast), false prophet and Satan are (Rev 20:11-14).

The new heaven and earth are then made manifest = Paradise ~ where the Tree of Life is (ref Gen 2:9; Rev 22:2). Also, understand that the thief on the cross was told by Jesus, who was also on a cross, "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)

Consider also what the Apostle Paul stated in 2 Cor 12:3-4 "And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak."

The Greek word for 'caught up' here is "harpazó", the same word used in 1 Thes 4:17 "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

Why in the air? Where exactly IS Paradise? Let's go back to Paul's testimony in 2 Cor 12, just one verse before vs. 3 (vs. 2) "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven." His words in verses 3-4 clarify that it is Paradise (vs. 2), which is located in this third heaven.

So, is there life after physical death? Yes. Is there a heaven (Paradise) and Hell (Sheol/Hades now and Gehenna then)? Yes. Is there going to be a literal resurrection of the just and the unjust? Yes. Is there going to be a rapture, a catching up "harpazó" into the air? Yes.

Again, I trust you will reconsider your conclusion. Praise God!

Daniel R on February 29, 2012:

This is after resurrection. It is our spirits that are raised, not our bodies. Jesus's spirit was raised. He was raised a spirit-being. I think you should do a study on what the Bible teaches about death. We do not go to Heaven or to Hell when we die. It is a state of unconciousness. Unfortunately, though, not many people know the truth about Heaven and Hell and it is these two subjects which create Atheists. As well as Jesus being God. I think we need to rethink these two doctrines. I do not believe it either the Heaven and Hell orthodoxy or the Jesus is God orthodoxy is Biblical or Scriptural.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on February 29, 2012:

Hi Daniel R, You said “The verse says that all except God have been subject to the Son.” You then went on to say, “If it was true that Son meant all of humanity, then angels would be subject to man, not man lower than angels.” In our fleshly state (your reference to Heb 2:7), we are made lower than the angels, but in our divine state (post-physical death), angels are subject to man.

1 Cor 6:3 “Do you not know that we will [future tense] judge angels? How much more matters of this life?” I trust you will reconsider your conclusion. Praise God!

Daniel R on February 29, 2012:

There is a slight problem with your interpretation of "Son" referring to all humanity. The verse says that all except God have been subject to the Son. If it was true that Son meant all of humanity, then angels would be subject to man, not man lower than angels.

Hebrews 2:7

You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands.

Thus, I conclude that "Son" can only be referring to Christ, our Lord.

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on March 26, 2011:

lionswhelp, I am only posting your comment to protect others from following you and such heretical beliefs. WOW.

lionswhelp on March 26, 2011:

Actually the first person he Father begot Jesus, John 3:16.

The second person should be the Holy Spirit - Ruach the Mother, Matthew 1:18&20- Conceived Jesus in a Mary's human womb.

The third person Jesus was born out of a Mary's womb as God the Father's and the Holy Spirit's first born son, John 3:16. Elohim - Family, Father, Mother, Son.

This is interesting because the Father's first born son was not Adam who was made from mud or red clay by Ruach the Holy Spirit and the Lord the Word(Jesus Christ) who gave him the breath of life, Job 33:4, Genesis 1:26. Adam was not made by the Father but by the other two Beings in their images, Adam-man & Adam-female,Genesis 1:26-27 - Let "us".

Judah's Daughter (author) from Roseville, CA on March 26, 2011:

A witness ~ Rev 3:30 confirms: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." Our Shepherd also said in John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."

Ps 23:1 states, "The LORD [Yehovah/YHVH] is my Shepherd" and Jesus stated in John 10:11, "I am the good shepherd; the go