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Shipwrecks of the Great Lakes

I love history and all the events that built our great country. Some events have details known by the average person but still interesting.

Edmund Fitzgerald

source Wickimedia

source Wickimedia

History of the Great Lakes

The Great Lakes in the United States are the largest freshwater system in the world and can be seen from outer space. However, there have been hundreds of shipwrecks over the past 200 years. The lakes include; Lake Ontario (the French Lac de Frontenac), Erie, Huron, Michigan and Superior. In addition, there is the St. Lawrence Seaway, which connects the Great Lakes to the Atlantic Ocean and opened in 1959.

The seaway was first explored in the 1500s. The border between Canada and the United States runs through the middle of the Great Lakes except for Lake Michigan and much of the St. Lawrence Seaway. The border was established during the Revolutionary war, although there were still border disputes, which continued for some years after the war. The War of 1812 was the last conflict on the lakes.

Map of the Great Lakes

shipwrecks-of-the-great-lakes

Facts about the Great Lakes

The Great Lakes contain approximately 21% of the world’s surface fresh water and is a 2300 marine highway from the St. Lawrence Seaway to the Lakes. Many major cities were founded on the lakes for purposes of shipping, such as Chicago, Cleveland, Buffalo, Green Bay, Toronto and Duluth, which is the Great Lakes “bulk cargo capital”. Lake Erie is the shallowest lake, which makes storms more dangerous for ships, and Lake Superior is the largest lake. There are 35,000 islands throughout the lakes with the largest being Manitoulin Island in Lake Huron which is the largest island in an inland body of freshwater in the world. There are also numerous rivers and canals running off the Great Lakes.

The early history of shipping was very dangerous as there have been hundreds of ships lost in storms. Storms arise very quickly in the lakes and one reason is because they are affected by three prominent air systems:

  • Winter brings the very dry and cold arctic system from the North
  • Another dry system is warm and comes from the Pacific West
  • A wet, tropical system comes from the south, the Gulf of Mexico

Mysteries of the Great Lakes

First Known Shipwreck

French explorer, La Salle, built the first known ship to navigate the Great Lakes in 1679, which was called the ‘Griffon.’ Not many details are known about the trip, but it is thought that the ship was launched into the Niagara River and headed along the coast of Lake Erie traveling all the way to Green Bay where La Salle loaded her with furs that were purchased from the Indians. The Griffon was never heard of again, so it is assumed it sunk in a gale with the entire crew.

Another Ship Lost at Sea

source stlawrence.com

source stlawrence.com

First Steamer - Also Shipwrecked

History records the first steamer to be built was “Walk-in-the-Water.” in Buffalo in 1818. It is known, however, that two steamers were built in 1616 on Lake Ontario, Their operations were confined to Lake Ontario, so they were not considered Great Lakes steamers. " Walk– In–the–Water” was also driven ashore during a gale on Lake Erie in 1821. Although shipping continued from that time until now, there were many ships that lie on the bottom of one of the lakes.

SS Edmund Fitzgerald

Certainly the SS Edmund Fitzgerald is one of the best-known catastrophes on the Great Lakes. The SS Edmund Fitzgerald was a Great Lakes freighter, which sank in Lake Superior in a storm on November 10,1975, with the loss of the entire crew. When she was launched in 1958 she was the largest boat on the Great Lakes and remains to this day the largest boat that has sunk.

For 17 years she had carried taconite, which is the variety of iron formation consisting of 15% iron and sedimentary rock and the iron minerals are inter-layered with Quartz, chert or carbonate from mines near Duluth, Minnesota. This ship was considered a workhorse, setting seasonal haul records six times.

Boat watchers loved the Fitzgerald due to her size, her record-breaking performance and her DJ Captain, as he piped music through the intercom all over the ship day and night. The day she went down she was fully loaded and was caught in a massive winter storm with near hurricane force winds and waves up to 35 feet high. No bodies were recovered from her crew of 29.

At the request of the families the bronze bell was recovered by the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society. It is not really known exactly why she went down but her sinking changed the regulations for Great Lakes shipping. The new regulations included mandatory survival suits, depth finders, positioning systems, increased freeboard, and more frequent inspections of the vessels

Lost Ships V: The November Witch

Sailor's Prayer

Lord, as I stand on the rolling deck

To view the restless sea
With its wide expanse of darkened sky,

You seem so far from me.

Intrepid youth should feel no fear,

But I have a load of care
For the safety of our ship and men.

Lord, hear my earnest prayer:

That I be true to every task;
May no fault lie with me.
Whatever danger may arise,
As we sail the raging sea.

May I be calm and know that You
Can still the wind and wave,
And be assured in perfect trust

That You have the power to save.

When the moon sheds beams from a starlit sky,

I feel near to You again,
For the same moon shines on my loved ones, too,

And I thank You, Lord......Amen.

Written by Mark Bradley’s father who was concerned about safety for his son

The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald -Gordon Lightfoot

Huntington Beach, Ohio on Lake Erie

source citydata.com

source citydata.com

In Conclusion

Shipping cargo on the Great Lakes has suffered along with most businesses in our current economy with 2009, being the lowest volume for iron ore in 71 years and the worst year for coal in 77 years also. Limestone was down to its lowest level since 1938. If manufacturing doesn't improve, neither will the demand for these minerals.

Sailing the Great Lakes is still a dangerous job, although certainly the many improvements due to new regulations and stronger vessels have improved the situation. Better communication is also a help. There are more than 2000 vessels sailing the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence and this does not take into account recreational boaters. The one thing you cannot control is the storms.

However, the lakes are beautiful and people also use the beaches in the summertime. I grew up in Lakewood, Ohio, and I got my worst sunburn ever on the shore of Lake Erie at Huntington Beach when I was a teen. I recently visited the area and it is still beautiful.

© 2011 Pamela Oglesby

Comments

Robert Sacchi on July 03, 2019:

We have some deaths in the Potomic because people ignore the warning signs.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on July 03, 2019:

Hi Patti, I think it would be so interesting to visit those shipwreck sites as I have not done that. The ferry would be nice too, on a calm day of course. Thanks for your comments.

Patty Inglish MS from USA and Asgardia, the First Space Nation on July 03, 2019:

Thanks for this article, Pam!

Friends and I have visited shipwreck sites along Lake Huron in Mid-Michigan and hope to visit more sites. The Planetarium in Bay City shows documentary films about shipwrecks in all the five lakes in addition to presentations regarding the universe and our solar system. We spent a day there seeing all of these presentations and were awestruck.

I think it could have been fun to use the ferries that once crossed several points on Lake Erie, but all these lakes seem to have dangers.

Thanks again!

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on July 03, 2019:

Robert, I agree as I have seen what can happen.

Robert Sacchi on July 02, 2019:

Yes, waterways can be deceptive. They should always be respected.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on July 02, 2019:

Hi Robert, These lakes can certainly be dangerous. I grew up by Lake Erie and it is shallow for a large lake, which makes it more dangerous. I appreciate your comments.

Robert Sacchi on July 01, 2019:

A great article about the Great Lakes. You point out how huge these lakes are and how dangerous these lakes can be.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on March 23, 2019:

Hi Cheryl, I grew up by Lake Erie, so this seemed like a great topic to me. I appreciate your comments.

Cheryl Simonds from Connecticut on March 23, 2019:

Wow, I really like this one. Thanks for the information.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on August 06, 2014:

Jy, Glad you enjoyed it, and I appreciate your comments.

John Young from Florence, South Carolina on August 05, 2014:

Very nicely done Pam!

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on August 05, 2014:

Pico, I know Lake Erie has rough waters because it is the shallowest. I am glad you enjoyed the hub, and I apprieciate your comments.

John from New Brunswick, Canada on August 04, 2014:

I enjoyed your hub. Have a bit of a personal connection to shipping on the Great Lakes. My father worked on the St. Lawrence seaway project back in the fifties as a labourer. Also had the pleasure of listening to a first hand account of a boat going down on Lake Huron. I'm sure there are a ton of stories to be told. I know there are over a thousand ships that sank on Lake Huron alone.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on June 10, 2013:

Imoonlake, That is not what I would want to hear right before the fishing trip. We always worry about our loved ones. I'm glad you enjoyed the hub, and I appreciate your comments.

moonlake from America on June 09, 2013:

We were just talking about Lake Superior this morning. My husband said Superior doesn't give up her dead. My husband, sons and other family members are going fishing soon on Lake Superior. What a thing for him to say just before leaving for this trip.

Enjoyed your hub. Voted up.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on June 08, 2013:

Jackie, I am glad this hub was informative to you and I appreciate your comments.

Jackie Lynnley from the beautiful south on June 08, 2013:

Very interesting, glad I found this for I certainly did not know! Thank you.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on July 09, 2012:

JY, I wrote this some time ago, but I grew up on the shores of Lake Erie and always knew about the Edmund Fitzgerald. I'm sure you'll find another interesting topic. I appreciate your comments.

John Young from Florence, South Carolina on July 09, 2012:

Was thinking of writing this article when I ran across yours in a google search. Good job Pam. Now I have to find something else to write about. LOL

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on January 26, 2012:

GmaGoldie, I am glad you enjoyed the article. The water on the Great Lakes can be rough and dangerous. Respect for its power is exactly right in my opinion. Thank you for your comments.

Kelly Kline Burnett from Madison, Wisconsin on January 26, 2012:

Pamela99,

Fascinating. I had just heard on the radio that on November 11th there were several wreaks and tragic deaths on the waters of Lake Michigan.

Water is wonderful but like humans, it must be respected, it does have the power to destroy and take a life very readily.

Excellent article. Voted up!

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on December 28, 2011:

Kenneth, I can't tell you how much that means to me. I am glad we met also. I haven't spent as much time on Hubpages the past few months due to other commitments but I think most of the people are great and I love your sense of humor. God Bless you and your also.

Kenneth Avery from Hamilton, Alabama on December 28, 2011:

Dear Pamela,

today is 12/28, and YOU are very welcome for the wishes and comments for I meant every word of them. Im glad I met you on hubs in 2011. You are a blessing to my life. Im serious. God bless you and yours.

Kenneth

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on December 28, 2011:

kenneth, Thank you for your comments about the hub. I appreciate the wonderful wishes for the New Year and wish the same for you as well.

Kenneth Avery from Hamilton, Alabama on December 27, 2011:

12/27

Hi again, Pamela...Loved the Edmund Fitzgerald photo. And this hub which you presented so well. I wanted to stop by to wish for you and yours, not only a Happy, but Safe, Prosperous, and Peaceful New Year. May all good things come to you. Sincerely, Kenneth

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on December 27, 2011:

Coolmon, I am glad you enjoyed the hub and I appreciate your comments.

Coolmon2009 from Texas, USA on December 27, 2011:

Impressive article; I really enjoyed the images, writing and the Edmund Fitzgerald video.

Kenneth Avery from Hamilton, Alabama on December 07, 2011:

Hi, Pamela99,

You are very welcome, for it IS the truth. And that is why Im here--to make as many people happy, if only for a moment, that would make my life useful. And you and yours have a wonderful Christmas filled with laughter, pause, silent reflection, love and the focus on Whom the holiday is about. And be safe in 2012.////Kenneth

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on December 07, 2011:

kenneth avery, Thank you so much for your lovely comment. It is much appreciated. I also pray that you and your family will have a Very Merry Christmas.

Kenneth Avery from Hamilton, Alabama on December 06, 2011:

Pamela....a masterpiece. Voted up and away. Marvelous text, research, and graphics. You are a God-gifted writer, Pamela. I am so glad that you are one of my followers. That makes me very happy. And I pray that you and yours have a Very Merry Christmas!

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on August 15, 2011:

crystolite, I'm so glad you enjoyed the hub and I appreciate your comments.

Emma from Houston TX on August 15, 2011:

Well written and fascinating hub.A very interesting history about the Great Lakes Shipping.I will go for further search about this great lakes.Vote up,interesting and awesome.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on July 17, 2011:

Support Med, Thank you for your comment.

Support Med. from Michigan on July 17, 2011:

Thanks for sharing this historic knowledge. v/r

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on June 03, 2011:

DzyMsLizzy, I remember learning that too. I'm glad you enjoyed the hub. Thanks for your comments.

Liz Elias from Oakley, CA on June 03, 2011:

Thanks for sharing such an interesting article. I have learned some things, so satisfied my "daily learn-something quota." ;-)

I remember in grade school, a mnemonic device we were taught for learning the names of the lakes--in a different sequence than you presented: Huron, Ontario, Michigan, Erie, Superior. The trick? Recited in that order, the initials spell "HOMES."

Voted up!

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on June 01, 2011:

Bookmark, Thank you for your comments.

Bookmark on June 01, 2011:

Great informative hub and interesting facts about lakes.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 31, 2011:

cardelean, I would like to take that tour. Thank you for your comments.

cardelean from Michigan on May 31, 2011:

Very informative and well put together hub. You provided some great information about my great state of Michigan! There is also a shipwreck tour that takes place on Lake Superior from Munising, MI. I did the tour a few years back with my husband and daughter and it was really neat.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 26, 2011:

Wayne, I agree that weather deserves our utmost respect on land and sea. We sure have seen that lately. Thanks for the comments.

Wayne Brown from Texas on May 26, 2011:

The Great Lakes are a force to be reckoned with when it comes to the onslaught of early winter storms. The Fitzgerald is certainly an undying monument to forces which come with these storms. Weather deserves our utmost respect on both land and sea and the graveyard of the Great Lakes attests to that reality. Good write! WB

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 24, 2011:

Rev Lady, I am glad you enjoyed the hub. Thank you for your comments.

RevLady from Lantana, Florida on May 24, 2011:

Very interesting and compelling hub. Thank you.

Forever His

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 21, 2011:

enlight your soul, Thank you so much for your comment.

enlight your soul from Bangladesh on May 21, 2011:

So nice hub.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 20, 2011:

Hello, I'm glad you visited the area as the lakes are beautiful. Thank you for your comments.

Hello, hello, from London, UK on May 20, 2011:

As always you have done a fantastic job and a splendid hub. I have been to Lake Ontario so it was even more interesting. Thank you.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 19, 2011:

livewithrichard, As I grew up on Lake Erie I knew there had been ship wrecks but I didn't know there were so many until I researched information for this hub. Thanks for your comment.

Susan, Thank your for your comments.

WoodsmensPost, I'm glad you enjoyed the hub and I appreciate your comments.

WoodsmensPost from Arizona on May 19, 2011:

Ships,Shipwrecks and the Great Lakes are some of my favorite history subjects, that hold my interest. Great info hub Pamela99, thanks for writing a hub like this.

Susan Zutautas from Ontario, Canada on May 19, 2011:

Pamela Fantastic hub. The Great Lakes are beautiful and powerful.

Up, useful and awesome!

Richard Bivins from Charleston, SC on May 19, 2011:

Great hub and an often overlooked area of shipwrecks. I live in Chicago and have heard many stories of shipwrecks on Lake Michigan and have friends that have dived on some. When you hear the word 'lake' you don't really associate it with a shipwreck but our Great Lakes are like Sea's and are huge. Thanks for the hub.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 19, 2011:

Lisa, I'm glad you enjoyed the hub and I appreciate your comments.

kannoujiatapas, Thank you so much for your comments.

kannoujiatapas on May 18, 2011:

Great informative hub and interesting facts about lakes.

Lisa HW from Massachusetts on May 18, 2011:

Pamela, I'm glad I came and read your Hub. It never even occurred to me that there have been shipwrecks in the Great Lakes.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 18, 2011:

anginwu, I agree the prayer is special also. I appreciate you comments.

anglnwu on May 18, 2011:

Good information. Love the Sailor's Prayer--only God can calm raging seas (lakes included). Thanks for sharing and rated up.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 18, 2011:

Ray, Thanks so much for your comments as I take them as a compliment.

Raymond D Choiniere from USA on May 18, 2011:

Excellent writing for your readers. I managed to learn a couple of things I didn't know before reading. That's always a good thing. :) Thumbs up! :)

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 18, 2011:

prasetio, I am glad to see you enjoyed the hub. Thanks for your comments. Love and Peace.

Mosadder, I am also glad you enjoyed the hub and I appreciate your comments.

Chris Montgomery from Irvine, CA on May 18, 2011:

This was great info! Thanks for writing such an engaging piece.

prasetio30 from malang-indonesia on May 18, 2011:

Wow..wow...wow. This was so beautiful. You have done a great research about this lakes. I can see how this lake so mysterious. Thanks for writing and share with us. I give my VOTE to you. Have a good day!

Prasetio

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 18, 2011:

Sally, Thank you so much for your comments.

Tom, I'm glad you enjoyed the hub and I appreciate your comments.

dearabbysmom, I have never been able to go to the museum but would love to. Thank you so much for your comments. Can

RedElf, It is one of my favorite ballads also. I'm glad you enjoyed the hub. Thank you so much for your comments.

RedElf from Canada on May 17, 2011:

Voted up and rated "Awesome" - the Edmund Fitzgerald is a haunting ballad, and an old favorite of mine. Thanks for this most interesting hub.

dearabbysmom from Indiana on May 17, 2011:

Thank you for writing about such an interesting topic! One of my favorite museums to date has been the Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum at Whitefish Point, MI on Lake Superior. Very good hub, rated up!

Tom rubenoff from United States on May 17, 2011:

I very much enjoyed this because I grew up on Lake Superior. Thank you for writing this intriguing article! It brought back a lot of memories.

Truckstop Sally on May 17, 2011:

I have never had the pleasure of seeing the Great Lakes. It is hard to imagine a lake so large to have waves! I would love to experience all the postives they have to offer.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 17, 2011:

saddlerider, I am glad you enjoyed the hub. You are certainly familiar with the Great Lakes and their gales. Thank you so much for your comment.

saddlerider1 on May 17, 2011:

Wow, what a wonderful hub of the Great Lakes and all the history behind it. I am made very aware of the Edmund Fitzgerald by our Canadian singer Gordon Lightfoot making it so famous in song. The mysteries that surround the Great lakes are legend.

As a former 18 Wheeler for 8 years I drove the Michigan and Superior sides often. I have seen how dangerous the lakes can be, I have witnessed the gales from the Superior with heavy rain, snow and winds that often blocked the Highway 17 I traveled across to get across the Superior.

Thanks again, I loved reading the history and what fantastic videos you embedded. Fantastic, bravo....hugs

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 17, 2011:

Hanna, Yes,it is. Thanks for your comments.

HealthyHanna from Utah on May 17, 2011:

Isn't treasure hunting exciting! Treasure comes in more forms than jewels and gold. Loved the hub.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 17, 2011:

always exploring, I'm glad you enjoyed the hub. I hope you do get to see the lakes but try to go in the summer as that cold wind that blows off the lakes in the winter is truly freezing. I appreciate your comments.

Eiddwen, You are a sweet friend and I sure appreciate your comments.

Eiddwen from Wales on May 17, 2011:

This is such a well presented and informed hub.I was gripped from beginning to end.

I vote all the way up here and take care,my friend.

Eiddwen.

Ruby Jean Richert from Southern Illinois on May 17, 2011:

Oh that poem written by the Sailor's Father is beautiful. Thank you for a very interesting story. I would love to see the Great Lakes, maybe someday.

Cheers

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 17, 2011:

Susan, Thanks you so much for your comments.

Susan Miles on May 17, 2011:

Great hub on the Great Lakes! I've spent time at Lake Michigan and it's truly beautiful.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 17, 2011:

KKGals, I'm glad you enjoyed the hub and I like the prayer also. I've keep it in a doc file for a long time. Thanks for your comments.

Susan Hazelton from Sunny Florida on May 17, 2011:

Marvelous hub Pamela. Fascinating information. I especially liked the sailor prayer. Rated up and awesome.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 17, 2011:

Ken, I grew up by Lake Erie and I had forgotten about beach glass. Thanks so much for your comments.

Frog Prince, I love that song. Thanks for your comment.

Rob, I'm glad you enjoyed the hub and I appreciate your comments.

samson, Thank you so much for your comments and I'm glad that you enjoyed the hub.

Sam from Tennessee on May 17, 2011:

Well written and researched, full of interesting and insightful facts and the descriptive video by Gordon Lightfoot is everyones' favorite. Voted up and beautiful...

rpalulis from NY on May 17, 2011:

Wow 21% of the worlds surface, these are fun and amazing facts. Very interesting hub, great job Pamela! Voted up and awesome.

The Frog Prince from Arlington, TX on May 17, 2011:

Wonderful Hub Pamela. As soon as I saw the title I thought about Gordon Lightfoot and The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. Here's his version. Great song!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vST6hVRj2A

The Frog

Ken Barton on May 17, 2011:

Great Hub on the Great Lakes Shipwrecks. Living near to Lake Erie my wife and I love to go to the lake to pick up 'Beach Glass', which presumably comes from glass once carried on board ships that sunk.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 16, 2011:

Will, Thank you for your comments.

RTalloni, I'm glad you enjoyed the hub and I appreciate your comments.

RTalloni on May 16, 2011:

Very interesting to learn more about the Great Lakes shipping history. Love this type hub! Voted up.

WillStarr from Phoenix, Arizona on May 16, 2011:

Very nice Hub and well written!

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 16, 2011:

SunRon, I would love to see your picture. I have never visited Diluth. I am glad you enjoyed the hub and I appreciate your comments.

Acer, I'm sure he will never forget that event. Thanks for your comments.

drbj, You grew up in the windy city and Cleveland is also quite windy especially in the winter and so cold. I very much appreciate your comments.

drbj and sherry from south Florida on May 16, 2011:

I spent my childhood living less than 500 feet from the shore of Lake Michigan (Chicago), Pamela, but never knew all this remarkable history of the Great Lakes. Thank you for your estimable research and sharing all these facts with us.

Mentalist acer from A Voice in your Mind! on May 16, 2011:

My older brother Mike was on station on the great lakes near Chicago while in the Coast Guard when the Edmund went down.;)

James W. Nelson from eastern North Dakota on May 16, 2011:

Outstanding hub, Pamela99. I love Gordon Lightfoot's song, and just once I visited Duluth. I wanted the sunrise over the lake but it was cloudy, but don't you know, just at sunrise the clouds parted right at the horizon and gave me the photo, then closed again. If I can learn how to get photos off transparencies I will sometime upload it to a hub. Thanks for the inspiration.

Pamela Oglesby (author) from Sunny Florida on May 16, 2011:

POP, I'm glad you enjoyed the hub and I certainly appreciate your comments.

K9jkeystrokes, It is one of my favorites also. I am doing much better, thank you. I appreciate your comments.

India Arnold from Northern, California on May 16, 2011:

I have long found the folk song about the Edmund Fitzgerald to be among my favorites. It is interesting to learn a little more about that ship and some other Great Lakes Shipwrecks. As always, a nicely presented hub Pam. Hope You are doing well. Up and useful.

K9

breakfastpop on May 16, 2011:

Fabulous and informative hub. The wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald Is the only wreck I am familiar with. I always learn something from your writing. Up and useful and awesome too!